BJJ Is Ineffective in the Real World

[DelicateSound]

Wo - a BJJ conversation without flaming!!! And its actually GOOD [shock and amazement]

I think a problem that a lot of grapplers have is that they mistake the ring for the street. Soon after I started my Judo, I was doing OK in the dojo, and I thought I was invincible. I got into a fight, and although I did manage to stick the guy on the ground with a nicely timed throw [Harai-Ogoshi I recall] I got pretty beaten up at first. My striking skills were pretty lame, and the reality of it all sh!t me up.

Any "sport" style ultimately must have rules. And there are no rules on the street. I was too stupid to have used Run-fu when I had the chance. Awareness is an important skill.

[DelicateSound]

Anerlich - nice site BTW.

[Merryprankster]

I offer this:

There is a great deal of talk about "dealing with the untrained person."

This is a fallacy, that we, as martial artists should go to GREAT lengths to break. How many times have you seen the "defense to the roundhouse punch," taught in MA, but NOT the defense to a sharp tight hook? Never mind that if you know how to defend the HOOK you can defend that big ol redneck swipe with relative ease.

My point is this: Train what works on trained opponents. Don't practice for the untrained. If somebody tries the football, head down, big-guy tackle all the grappling I've done will let me get out of that with ease. If I've trained to defend against that tackle and the guy turns out to be an angry ex wrestler who shoots a nice solid double, well then, I'm screwed.

Bottom line: Assume your opponents are trained. Practice good principles hard against other trained opponents. The practice you have will then enable you to deal with the "untrained," version of that attack.

[DelicateSound]

On the whole I agree, but there are some MA's who could train so much to fight against their own style, that the rough brawling of the street may confuse them.

I think Geoff Thompsons classes are the best, his realistic training with untrained punches, swearing, spitting etc. Its what you will USUALLY encounter [not always!] so you should be aware of it. There is no etiquette on the street.

[Merryprankster]

When I said trained, I didn't just mean your own style. Go out and find other people who different things, and do so regularly.

Otherwise, you get really good at fighting YOUR style, and not much else

[DelicateSound]

All arts are complete to some extent. None are TRULY complete.

That's why I reckon cross-trainng will be the "Next Big Thing"

[Merryprankster]

I think so too.

I predict that many MMAists will use some San Shou as their standup and some sort of Groundgrappling.

[DelicateSound]

I find that people are changing styles a lot more. This has to be a good thing also, there are too many McDojo's in the world.

I myself have experienced Jujitsu, BJJ, Shotokan Karate, Judo, Aikido, TaiChi and LauGar.

I can't say I know the styles, but I've been along to the classes and given each style a chance to impress me. Most didn't. I still haven't found the style that's right for me. I'm off to a Wing Chun class next week

[Water Dragon]

I think we're at a point where traditional Gong Fu can now compete in the NHB world. Personally, I'd like to see JF Springer get some of his guys in the mix. SPM looks like it would fill a nice void in the MMA world, and the gloves used allow for the use of the Phoenix Eyes.

Our group is also looking at competing using Shuai Chiao as a base. Solid Hsing Yi as well as Taiji are also well developed for the game. I'd love to see the short hand systems and clinch fighters in the Octagon.

[Merryprankster]

Waterdragon:

We shall see. I'm not against it by any means, nor do I think it's impossible, and I hope that there is some success. It will expand the list of "useful," things to train in for MMA, yeah?

[Archangel]

Is there really going to be anything new found? As long as we have 2 arms and 2 legs humans will fight a certain way. Look at the fighters in MMA now, they all fight basically the same way; It was evolution and just natural for this to develop. Boxing took the same path, in the early days of John L. Sullivan the fighters just threw wild punches. As it developed through the years certain techniques, certain stances, certain strategies became dominant; and boxing as you see it today is the most effective form of punching.

I've watched some San Shou fights and it honestly does look like kick boxing with wrestling added. Every take down attempted, I could remember doing in wrestling tournies. The double, single, hip toss, lateral drop; they were all there. Did the Chinese steal from wrestling and call it their own? certainly not, well at least not intentionally. These techniques are the most effecient way of taking down an opponent using what we have.

[Merryprankster]

Arch--not "new," no. And nobody stole anything from anybody... but San Shou fighters have worked a great deal on integrating throwing and striking, and the more they do it, the better they get at it, so it would make sense to practice the San Shou format as a stand-up base. Think of it more as a way of approach to training than anything else. Good MMA gyms do this already!

As far as the wild punches bit, perhaps. And boxing is the most efficient punching art if you have gloves on. Ever notice the old stance of the Sullivan era boxers? It's not because they didn't know how to stand. It's because they didn't use gloves. That high guard developed because with gloves I now have:

1. The ability to land full power shots to head without breaking my hands.

2. Two large pillows protecting my face, from an incoming large pillow. (although, having been hit by people, I can safely say it doesn't ever FEEL like a pillow fight

This changed the WHOLE game. Wearing down the opponent round after round after round to the body became less important because a good solid shot to the head ends the fight. Protecting your head becomes of utmost importance, so you bring your lead hand back to your face rather than out in front, and with those pillows it's a great defense! Stances became lower to facilitate power in the shots because I don't have to worry about hurting myself anymore. Lower stances reduce foot mobility so slipping, and the bob and weave become the predominant evasive techniques. I imagine the list goes on. And all because of gloves

Now, I'm not knocking boxing at all! I think its hands down the best punching art available, if for NO other reason than the way we train to box (and I think there are more reasons than that, but that's a biggie) but it's evolution has a great deal to do with the gloves.

[Syre]

actually, this fight from http://www.streetbrawl.com/ does go to the ground:

http://www.realfight.com/videos/fight3.ram

[shinwa]

I don't think boxing is the best style of punching. That's a really weird thing to say considering theres an equal of any boxing punch in traditional arts(jab/backfist hook/same thing, uppercut/same thing), and boxing doesn't teach you to defend your lower body at all. No elbows, no joint work, etc etc etc. Wing Chun has that all in spades. I don't thing WC is superior either. Depends on the fighter.

[Yung Apprentice]

Has anyone trained in both JJJ and BJJ? If so what are there likes and differences? Has anyone outside of CMAs ever grappled against a mantis practioner who is proficient in low mantis?