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Thread: The Modern Southern Shaolin Temple

  1. #16
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    GLW

    Let's think about the Olympics.

    Originally, the Olympics were held in Olympia Valley in Greece, beginning in 776 BCE and competing every fours years for almost 1200 years. Our modern day Olympics were created by Baron Pierre de Coubertin in 1896.

    Can we then say that the rebuilt Olympics is truly an Olympics?
    Gene Ching
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  2. #17
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    GLW- It doesn't make me go hmmm. You need to understand Chan Buddhism. As a religion Chan was never lost(it's not really a religion in the western sense either) It doesn't really matter where the "original" south temple was or if it even exsisted. It does now, if the people on this thread know what they are talking about we have two. Isn't that somthing to be happy about? Shaolin is flourishing, the actual martial art practiced by the monks can be anything traditional contemporary it doesn't matter. The shaolin martial arts are a vehicle for chan. Everything is impermanint so who cares about a building? If the shaolin monks opened a temple out of a musty old basement it would still be a shaolin temple if the teachings of chan buddhism were there.
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  3. #18
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    When the Olympics were restarted, NO ONE tried to say that it was a continuation of the Olympics from ancient Greece.

    What WAS said was that the Greeks had a thng called the Olympics wherein the city states sent their best athletes and for a shining moment in time, all wars suspended, politics stopped (in the ideal) and the city states came together as athletes and lover of physical prowess in competition and comradeship.

    Then, the idea was put forth that this for the modern world was a really good thing and lead to understanding. So...let's start it up again....tie it back to the ideals that were held in such highe esteem in Greece, pay respect to the Greeks since they fathered much of what is Western Civilization ...and in honor of their ideals ...call the games the Olympics....

    At NO time was there any discussion about tying it all back to something that had been long dead except in concept and spirit.

    That is NOT what is hapening with the modern Shaolin temple. Money enters into these things in a big way...and NO ONE ever really messes with anyone else's rice bowl unless they are trying to take it from them....this is the long standing way of Chinese business.

    Chan...how has the connection been made. This argument does not at all hold water.

    The same folks who are talking about the growth of Chan with the temple are the same ones who later complain about the oppression of the PRC government in regards to religion. The view of religion encompasses ALL relgion...not just Christianity. The government gets involved here ...simply because it is a cash cow. Milk it while you can.

    Buy the dream if you wish...but know the difference. First folks try to say that traditional wushu in China is all but dead and that it has been replaced by what they consider to be a watered down thing called Wushu ...then they want to believe that the traditional teachers all of a sudden appear at the temples because they were rebuilt for a movie...and archaeology...or tourism and historical purposes. It can't be both ways. There is a major logical contradiction here.

    That is what makes me go HMMMM...

  4. #19
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    If the shaolin monks opened a temple out of a musty old basement it would still be a shaolin temple if the teachings of chan buddhism were there
    The Shaolin Monks aren't opening the temple are they? It's an athiest government trying to make some $$$. It'll still be a decent wushu school, historical monument, and it probably could turn into a true monastary, I suppose, under the right circumstances.

  5. #20
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    kboggess said...............

    "Taizu is really popular in Quanzhou. Five Ancestor Fist was created in Quanzhou as well"

    Reply]
    I am currently researching the Tai Tzu/Chao Family Fist systems. I was wondering, do you know enough to help me out? Possibly help me make contact with english speaking Tai Tzu teachers in the area (Well any area really)?

    I'm looking to set up a video exchange in the system where I could learn the style one step at a time. Advancement would come as I sent video copy back for evaluation.

    A flight to the source would be in the back-ground when time money and the eventual learning of Chinese becaomes a reality.

    Thanks,

    Gian
    aka Royal Dragon
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  6. #21
    Gian,

    Unfortunately my main contact for the local Southern arts, Xu Jing Min, passed away last year. My other main teacher in Xiamen focuses on Xing Yi. I won't be going back until a couple of years from now (we just had a son and need to wait. But we will be definitely going back--a great grandmother, four aunts, and four cousins are waiting in Quanzhou to see him!). I hope to forge some new contacts then.

    Gian, an interesting note about the linquistic experiences if you learn Mandarin Chinese and make your way there. If you learn Mandarin and hit the streets for shopping or visiting people, you will find that many people in Quanzhou won't understand you. If they do speak Mandarin, you will find it heavily accented. The area dialect is called (in Mandarin) Minnanhua (South of the River Min dialect), or Hokkien. What makes this more challenging is that the dialect differs within the region. The dialect of Xiamen differs somewhat from that Quanzhou.

    Also, be careful if you find someone willing to do a correspondence course--they might take you for a ride. I was ripped off more than once--and got in trouble from my wife for being so gullible. It is a bargaining culture. The initial price is inflated automatically since everyone assumes it will be brought down through bartering.

    Best of luck.

    Keith

  7. #22
    Shaolindynasty wrote....
    Isn't that somthing to be happy about? Shaolin is flourishing, the actual martial art practiced by the monks can be anything traditional contemporary it doesn't matter. The shaolin martial arts are a vehicle for chan.

    Agreed. The religious aspect never left. And the activity in Fujian Province is most likely a merger between the ongoing Chan sect and the local martial art groups. The martial arts are only a tool. From my perspective, the value comes in helping to preserve and popularize the regional Fujian arts, which are under-represented in many places such as the US.

    I am leary, however, when many use folk traditions and legends to promote their own purpose--religious or otherwise. The danger with the Fujian Shaolin Temple(s) situation is that many a legend is being cast as truth, and that embellished truth is being used as a marketing tool for self or group gain. I am sure that many have honorable intentions. But many see an opportunity for reputation and profit. I would summarize the motivations for Southern Shaolin Temple activities as:

    1) religous
    2) business
    3) regionalism (pride in the local history and traditions)

    Were these motivations present during the Northern Temple revitilization? Probably. On the bad side, some shady methods and intentions may have been involved with the Northern Temple. On the good side, I can get VCDs now on the actual Temple forms.

    We'll see how the Southern Temple(s) pan out over the next dedade. I hope that the end result is similar to the Northern Temple--the local Fujian arts are made available for study and research to the international community.


    Keith

  8. #23
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    Kieth

    Thanks for the info. As of now, I have three contacts for Tai Tzu here in the states, and two overseas. It seems however that none of them (with the exception "maybe" of one) has the entire system. Tai Tzu and it's various counter parts seems spread out, and I am looking for as many sources as I can to peice it together.

    In a couple of years, I may be in a better position to do Mainland research in the style. Maybe we could go together? You could be my guide?

    Anyway, it's a thought. Travel seems inevitable for my path.

    Thanks,

    Gian
    Last edited by Royal Dragon; 01-26-2002 at 11:55 PM.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  9. #24
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    GLW- I have no interest to turn this into a "not real shaolin" thread but....... The fact that shaolin is a tourist area means nothing, most religious sites are. Also shaolin was burned down and rebuilt many times why is it since this last time it has to be dead? Is it cause of the PRC?

    Brad- I don't think the Buddhism is officially indorsed by the government but listening to the monks and their disciples, it seems like they "sneak" the buddhism in there. There are halls and stuff set up also there are monks there that only practice buddhsim and not martial arts. I think the PRC has loosened up on the no religion thing and shaolin probally can get away with alot cause it is such a tourist area.


    The people that fight so hard and say this and that is not the "original" don't really understand the original's or otherwises message anyway.
    Last edited by Shaolindynasty; 01-27-2002 at 09:29 AM.
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  10. #25
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    kboggess

    I practice 5 Ancestors Fist. BTW, I was always told that Wuzuquan was started in the Northern temple and was adopted by the Southern temple. From what my Sigung told us, the history of Wuzuquan is pretty clouded anyway.

    As far as what they practice, I am not really sure to be honest. All I know is that my Sigung was teaching them Wuzuquan and some of the healing arts. The way they practice Wuzuquan definitely has a Taizu flavour to it (whereas the way we learn it it has a more Peh Hok flavour).
    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
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    I see all my dead relatives seated.
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  11. #26
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    "The way they practice Wuzuquan definitely has a Taizu flavour"

    By the time you read this Royal Dragon is on a plane to this temple.


    The interesting thing is we get to watch and hear first hand acounts about how they are putting together the arts in these temples. This may shed more light on exactly how they did this at the Songshan temple to cause i'm sure they did somthing similar. I would love to go on a tour of the famous martial temples someday. Like one that would go to all the Shaolin temples, Wu Dang, Emei etc. That would be somthing really interesting wouldn't it.(here is where Gene tries to sell me tours by the guy who had an indorsed ad in Kungfu qigong )
    Hung Sing Martial Arts Association
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  12. #27
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    Yup, I'm THERE!!!!!

    But first, I have to learn Chinese, several dialects infact.


    Now where was this temple again?

    RD
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  13. #28
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    cxxx[]:::::::::::>
    Behold, I see my father and mother.
    I see all my dead relatives seated.
    I see my master seated in Paradise and Paradise is beautiful and green; with him are men and boy servants.
    He calls me. Take me to him.

  14. #29
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    glw

    You know, I hear this all a lot from martial arts people. I'm really not sure what it is about money that freaks out MA people but it bleeds into Shaolin in a bizarre way. Frankly it takes money to restore and maintain temples.
    Certainly tourism is a big factor, but that is a factor at any temple. Take for example the Mahbodhi Temple in Bodh Gaya. It was in a complete state of disrepair after the Brits pulled out. Now, thanks to tourist and pilgrim income, it has undergone massive restoration but it is still far below its former glory. It had less lineage claims than Shaolin, but now it has redeemed itself considerably. Can we say the rebuilt Mahbodhi temple is truly the Mahabodhi?
    And as for the old PRC wushu killed traditional kungfu bit - you got to talk to the 'folks' who say that to get to the contradiction. It resides within them. Wushu had an undeniable effect, but I've found plenty of traditional stuff still extant. And it wasn't like I had to dig and dig - it's pretty easy to find. If you beleive Shaolin is long dead - that's fine. But can't we restore it too in concept and spirit? And can't we honor those few monks who have survived through things like the CR and repsect their lineage?
    Gene Ching
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  15. #30
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    Gene,

    to truly REBUILD the temples into what they are supposed to be...TEMPLES first...historical later...

    The first step is to recruit MONKS who are from the sects (ie. Chan or Zen) as in a call to international Buddhist organizations with a request to rebuild the temples.

    When was this done.... ?

    Even if you DO have some older monks who came back to the temple, you need more than this to rebuild and teach new monks...and get new novitiates. This is typically done by bringing monks from other places for temporary or permanent stays to teach and organize.

    When was this done... ?

    AND>..who did it, where did they come from, what sects did they come from, etc....

    How did the Chinese Govt. backing in light of the official edict of NO state support for ANY religion or religious endeavor. The Govt. tolerates religions to an extent but does NOT fund them. Follow the money trail ....

    I have known rank and file practicing Buddhists that follow the tenets of the faith more strictly than any of these monks.... Either that is an embarrassment for those monks or they were never really monks in the first place....Either way, they have some ways to go before I would follow them as monks...or promote them....

    Been around a while...I remember the days when Bruce Lee was alive...and many would claim that he trained at the Shaolin temple (because they got the movies mixed up with real life) and then there were those (some still around) who claimed that they trained at Shaolin in the 1960's....So excuse me if I am highly dubious on this....The rice bowl is too big...too many people can make money too easily on this...and it is not needed, the training is real, why add the history and religion dream to a reality of training?

    Honesty and money...what is wrong with this picture....

    Religion and money...even worse.

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