Subforms of Hung Ga

[DF]

Je Lei Sifu is corrected, sup ying is not a form of the Tang Fong curriculum. At Yee's Hung Ga there are some of us who are familiar with the minor forms of the Lam's lineage, su ying being one of them. This is from one of our old senior Robert Chu who had studied the Lam lineage prior. As we all know Robert is a very well repected WC practioner and very open in exchanging and sharing his knowledges. It is during his time with Yee's Hung Ga that he taught the Lam's minor forms to those who were interested. My Sifu Frank Yee is also a very open minded person , he never discourage any of us from learning.
Today all those minor forms that were taught by Robert are optional forms. They are not part of the Yee's curriculum, They are available for students to learn but not mandatory. As a matter of fact , not all branches of yee's Hung Ga teaches these forms. We have plenty to work on already with the four hand forms that we have.

The four hand forms are gung gee fut fu, fu hok,
ng ying and the iron wire.

The reason for this response is just to be sure from a historic stand point which lineage has which forms. If you look at it, there are really three core forms in Hung Ga, Gung gee fut fu, Fu Hok and the iron wire. The subforms were created by the elders to help students progress. Why are we seperating the Lam and Tang lineage ?
Aren't we all from Wong Fai hung?
I really do not see such a big difference between the two lineages.
A more interesting topic should be , where are the other WFH lineages beside Tang and Lam?
We all know WFH had many disciples during his life time. Did any of them teach ?

I talk enough.

peace

DF

[bean curd]

df, your are 100% correct in your statement.

we all come from wong fei hung, this is the key to our art, and we should all cherish this , and through this learn and respect each other irrespective of what lineage we come from.

for myself i am from chiu kau lineage and chan hon chung lineage.

the interesting part of my training (started in 1973), is that the four forms i was taught from the chiu kau lineage is gung gee fook fu, fu hok, sup ying and tit sien.

it was not till much later that i was shown ng ying, and have always thought of this as a sub form.

this being the case, and how the players of the tang fung lineage have ng ying as a pillar form, can i ask if the ng ying that tang fung lineage play is different in ways to that of the chiu kau lineage players.

unfortunatly where i live, (down under) we don't have any tang fung players here, so i have not seen ng ying played by this lineage, i would be greatly interested in any tang fung players answers.

thnk in advance

choi gin

[DF]

Hi bean curd,

I do not really know what the Lam's lineage Ng Ying looks like, so I can not really say what and where the differences are.
I have seen a ng ying kuen in the past that is much shorter than the one we do. I do not know is that a Lam's lineage form or not.
As far as why the ng ying is important, there are many reasons depending on how you want to look at things. The most obvious being the techniques and how each of the animals move. Since we are all different, each student can match his or her own body type , personality etc with the animal that best fit him or her.
Another reason, as the student progress, we can teach how the five elements corresponds to each of the five animals. This is done to further understand the internal, intend , generation of power etc.
I know I only just provide a very general answer to your question, but I think you know what I mean.
Ultimately, we are human and not a tiger or dragon,etc. The five animals ,five elements, twelve bridges theories are just tools for us to teach and help students understand. The theories are there to help us paint a mental picture so we can do the technique with the type of power, intend as it was designed. I think thats why we have so many styles of martial art. Just different ways of expressing body movement in combat. At the end of the day, it is all the same thing.

peace
DF

[bean curd]

df,

thanks for the reply, know what you are eluding too.

peace also

[hasayfu]

First let me say that I am a big supporter of the one family concept. The more I see different Hung Gar schools the more I see the similarities. The differences are really more interpretations of the same concept and seeing the differences helps me have a larger understanding of those concepts.

Second, there is at least two branches of WFH that I know of that doesn't go through LSW or TF. They are his last wife and Penang Leng Nann Hung Cheun of Malaysia. The malaysian lineage actually comes from WFH's first set of students.
(before LSW and TF)

Finally, the Ng Ying from the Chiu line is the same as Sup Ying from Lam Jo line (since some of the TF people know that one) except it stops after the crane portion with the ending from Fu Hok. Anyone know both the TF Ng Ying and the Lam Sup Ying that can say if this is true of the TF Ng Ying?

If not, then the Ng Ying is a very different set.
I've never seen TF Ng Ying and that's why I ask. Let's not get into better or worse. If you look at everyone's sets, you can learn something from them.

[DF]

The Tang Fung Ng Ying is a little different from the Lam's Sup Ying form. The dragon part is very different, the Lam's has more of an iron wire flavor in it. The leapord part is also a little different. The tiger ,snake and crane portion are much more similar. Both are great forms.
The sup ying is by far much longer, boy do you need to be in shape for it, lol.
We are familar with the folks in Malaysia, from what sifu said from his last visit with them, their forms are very similar to ours.
Hope this help

peace
DF

[molum_jr]

Ng Ying Kuen from a different perspective. First, I have to digress a little.

White Crane, Pak Hoc, is well-known and has been around for quite a while. Wong, Yan-Lum (WYL) was a contempary of Wong, Kay-Ying and Wong, Fei-Hung. The were all acquaitences and members of Kwangtung's Sup Fu (Canton's Ten Tigers). It is even rumored that WYL has some influence on Wong, Fei-Hung's Fu Hok Sheon Ying Form (The upper/downward cuts and "pow" upward swings). Interesting rumor that has been floating around for decades, but just that - a rumor to note. The execution of these hung gar techniques and white crane's "pow (upper cut) and cup (downward cut)" is different in taste and form. But who knows...dang...I am going off on a tangent again. Back to the subject of Ng Ying Kuen!

White Crane kicked a lot (really...a lot) of ass in the old days in Canton. They took a lot of challenges on platforms and to this day, remain elite and difficult to cull any significant amount of information on their style. They have their own organization (social, political, and martial arts wise). They do not care to associate with other system; hence, we do not see a lot of intermediate or advance sets demo'd to outsiders. Snotty behavior, but they possessed a very effective and efficient (no block but strike)system.

As was the tradition, if one came across a superior opponent and lost the fight then you would join that style. White Crane acquired a lot of different martial artists(MA) within their system. For example, Luk, Ah-Choy who is Quentin Fong's sifu was a traditional Choy Lay Fut practitioner and they have some CLF influenced flavor in some of their white crane forms.

Many of these MA still practised and retained some of their old forms. By the time Ng, Siu-Chung (considered the Father of White Crane) standardized Tibetan Lamma into White Crane during the WWII period; Ng Ying Kuen was already in the pak hoc system. A hung kuen practitioner (don't know who he was) had brought in Ng Ying Kuen because that was the set that Hung Kuen practitioners were taught and prevalent at that time and NOT Sup Ying Kuen. This is white crane history.

So if you ever luck out and see a white crane demonstration of Ng Ying Kuen, please note that it IS a Hung Kuen Set. Even the white crane clan say that it was from a former Hung Kuen MA who joined their lama system. The form has some interesting dynamic tension that we associate with hung gar and even has the signature "que sao (one-index finger)" coupled w/sei ping ma AND yee gee kim ma. The crane is done in dynamic tension form also...very, very interesting indeed.

I thought that Paul and DL would find this though provoking...heh, heh.... So there is some oral history from the white crane clan supporting the Ng Ying Kuen stance as a major form at that point in time, back in China... Remember that it is just my two-cents soooo please do not get agitated if you do not agree.

[molum_jr]

The teacher of Quentin Fong is Luk, Chi-Fu and NOT Luk, Ah-Choy. Sorry for that late night error!

Having talked to my sisuk, it is a mistake to assume that all hung kuen practitioners from the "Kwangtung Sup Ying" period learned everything. Even as late as the early sixties, some hung kuen people never went beyond Fu Hok Sheon Ying Set. He mentioned that the mentality was not to collect and learn all the sets, but to work on what was taught to you and explore and excel in your form, martial arts skills until you were **** good. If you opened up your own studio, and your students wanted to learn more, you would just send them to one of your sihings or sidyes or the form/training. No big deal...

[DF]

I agree with molum_jr that things were taught differently back then. I remember all we did back then was basic,techniques and foundation trainings, Forms were taught out before we have to do a public demo, and not necessary in any specfific orders. I remember learning the spear as my second form after gung gee, lol. Molum_jr sisook is corrected in basiclly saying it is more important to have quality rather than quantity.

The pak hoc connection is very interesting and worth exploring. I will now go and haunt my pak hoc friends about their ng ying, lol.

peace
DF

[Paul Skrypichayko]

I don't know too much about bak hok pai or bak hok kuen, but perhaps this mystery figure who brought some hung gar to white crane was Kwan Tak Hing.

A few things might not fit though. Kwan Tak Hing's base style was white crane, and he learned his hung gar later, as a casual student or friend from Chan Hon Chung. Chan Hon Chung however did not teach Ng Ying Kuen, but we also know that Kwan Tak Hing created his own Sup Ying Kuen.

Lovely how confusing things get. =)
hehehe

Perhaps this mystery figure was from Tang Fung lineage or from Chiu Kao? If it was around WW2, it would be before the period of Bak Hok Sam Fu, and should be easy to figure out, as most of the people from that era are still alive

[CPS]

Talking about white crane and Hung Gar:
Ever seen the Bubishi (Patrick McCarthy's translation/version). It's about Goju Karate and the origin which is Crane Kung Fu (don't think it's Tibetan white crane).
In the section on the origin of the crane styles Fong Weng Chun is mentioned as the founder. Also there are some drawings depicting here with her husband "Official Hung". So while we have the legend of Hung Hsi Kwan and his style being influenced by his wife Fong Weng Chun, in Crane style it is exactly counterwise. Here the legends tell Fong Weng Chun is the "creator" being influenced by Hung Hsi Kwan.
So crane style and hung gar date back a long way.


Secondly I have to agry with Ha Say Fu.
I also have seen several lineages/schools. All have there small differences, but the main line is always the same. It's always Hung Gar and will always be our family. (regardless if we also have some different forms and stories).

[unitzky]

Since different teachers are all trying to make a living teaching Kung Fu, the tendency is to see their closest "relatives" as the worst competition
simply because they offer a similar curriculum. (and thus theoretically steal students back and forth)
Of course the Hung Ga lineages are more similar than they are different. I don't see other Hung Ga people as 'bad guys', but I would still be cautious about going into one of their schools, because despite any good intentions I may have, they may see me as a potential troublemaker. I wouldn't want this, so it is best to love one's own lineage, admire what is good in other lineages, and stay out of trouble! The Hung fist will thrive if we all train hard, teach good students, and remember how to behave

[DF]

hi GOKSUT,

you mentioned in your other post that you are a student of sifu Frank Yee. Please contact me as soon as possible.

Dixon Fung

[CPS]

I recently heard that the subforms Moi FA Kuen, Wu Dip Cheung etc. were inlcuded in the Hung GAr style in the 1950's.
Several Hung Gar master came together because htey thought other styles had much more forms and Hung Gar could use some "beginner forms".
So they created/edited some forms together.

Does anybody have any info on this?

Note: please do not come with the story of the Ching Mo. Lam Sai Wing was not a member of this association.

[South Paw]

Patrick Chiu wrote: "Please do not come with the story of the Ching Mo. Lam Sai Wing was not a member of this association"

He was a member of the Kuo Shu Institute though. This Institute was founded in the early thirties in Guangzhou and was a branch of the Central Kuo Shu Institute in Nanjing. Also in this institute Northern and Southern Styles were mixed and new forms were created.