But its the same
You said you train Hung Kuen ....Do you cames from the Lao Kim lineage and the Lapunti Abaniko Arnis of GM Jonny Chiu : Ur from the fhillipine ?
Here Lao Kim.....thats mean grand auntie........
Do you have more ......I really like it
The proper name for Ngo Cho Kun is Ngo Co Ho Yang Kun or Wu Zu He Yang Quan. This refers to Shizu Cai Yuming's (Chua Giok Beng) teaching of Wuzuquan. There are other non-Chua's NCK, and they mainly come from Malaysia.
Within the Chua's lineage, it can be generalized into 2 different "flavors": Quanzhou and Xiamen.
Quanzhou's lineages come from Chua's early students. They have relatively larger movements. Both Kong Han (from Lo Yan Cu) and Beng Kiam (from Tan Kiong Beng) are Quanzhou. These 2 masters, and correspondingly their sons Lo King Hui and Tan Ka Hong) interchanged the knowledge a lot. So, there are many similarities. There are also differences, of course. Generally, Beng Kiam is considered a "proper text book" NCK. They emphasize the precision of the execution and rhythm. Kong Han has somewhat an emphasis on a quick and hard execution. However, I am not from either of these lineages. So, this is a generalization from an outsider view.
There is also a third lineage in the Philipines, from Kun Tao Ok's lineage. They are lesser known, but are known for the fierceness of the way they fight. Kun Tao Ok is from Liem Kiu Ji's lineage.
Xu Qinghui from mainland China is also a good Quanzhou master. He is from a different lineage (not Kong Han), but received intensive instructions from the late master Lo King Hui.
Lo Ban Teng lineage(s) from Indonesia are also a Quanzhou style. They emphasize on extreme power generation and limbs' conditioning.
The current active Xiamen styles are mostly from Sim Yang Tek (Shen Yangde)'s lineage. He was the last (indoor) student of Chua. This lineage has a more compact frame and emphasizes on vibration energy. The known successors of this lineage (but not limited to) are Wushuguan group in Xin An village near Xiamen, Beng Seng in Singapore, Giok Beng in Singapore, a master in Taiwan, and a lineage that descends from Liem Tjoei Kang in Solo (Surakarta), Indonesia. There could also be a lineage in Myanmar since Sim lived there for a while before finally migrated to Singapore. However, it is hard to track them due to the lack of communication and political situation.
Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage is unique since it has both Quanzhou and Xiamen flavors. Liem was a nephew of Lo Ban Teng and also an adopted son of Sim Yang Tek.
It is not easy to find instructions in North America. These are some of the list that I would recommend (but are not limited to):
- Kong Han group has Daniel Kun in Vancouver, BC; Jeffrey Yang in Canton, OH; and Milo Ong in LA, CA.
- Beng Kiam has Christopher Rickett in San Diego. However, he doesn't advertise in NCK teaching. He is also a very reputable master of Filipino arts.
- There is someone from Liem Tjoei Kang's lineage in Southern California area. However, this person prefers to go dormant for now and does not wish to teach.
There are, of course, other teachers from different lineages. However, I don't know about them enough to recommend their instructions.
About Sam Chien, it will not be the same. "One thousand people have one thousand different Sam Chien." It is not the shape, but the essence that matters.
I hope this helps. Best wishes.
What forms encompass the style?
There is a lot of forms, maybe hundreds of them, since the style is an agglomeration of Southern Tai Cho, White Crane, Monkey, Southern Luo Han, and Tat Mo Ki Kang. Each of the ancestor's forms can be practiced and carried over. There are also forms created by Sujo Chua or his descendants.
The majority of Sujo Chua's students had already been masters in a Fujian style before asked to be a disciple of Sujo Chua. So, each of them could have also been teaching their respective forms.
It was more likely that Sujo Chua taught more of the principles, such as embodied in the Sam Chien, the power generation (ngo ki liat), and methods, much more than the forms.
There are documented 7 chien forms alone. Each of lineage carries different forms.
However, there are common core forms taught such as: Sam Chien )3 battles), Ji Sip Kun (20x punch). Si Mun Pha Kak (4 gates 8 diagrams), and Song Sui (hard to translate, something like Double "Neutralizer").
Yet, so far, I have never seen any identical executions of these forms from each lineage. Kong Han and Beng Kiam closely resemble each other, even in the forms' list, due to the aforementioned interactions.
When this style's practitioners meet, usually they show each other's Sam Chien. Although looking rather simple, Sam Chien is the "thesis" of the practitioner's and the lineage's kung fu. There are sayings such that: "Learning Sam Chien in the beginning, until death learning Sam Chien," "Sam Chien is deeper than it looks," "From the core of Sam Chien will grow 108 branches," or "There should never be 3rd pair of ears while giving instructions for Sam Chien."
Sam Chien, as executed by Alexander Cho, is very "textbook" and "fundamentally correct."
Thank for all this information
Does some players put more emphazize in one 5 core style ...I mean some more white crane ,some more tai cho and so on
Thanks for the information. Do you know much about Ngo Cho Kun outside of SE Asia?
Originally Posted by wu-ji
12-10-2007, 02:26 PM
You are more than welcome. I am just sharing information.
Originally Posted by Steeeve
With a risk of overgeneralizing it:
Quanzhou lineages use Tai Cho core since a lot of them are descendat, or somewhat influenced, by Liem Kiu Ji (Some calls him Lim Kiu Lu), who was a Tai Cho master prior meeting Chua Giok Beng.
Xiamen is heavily influenced by White Crane since Sim Yang Tek was a White Crane master prior meeting Chua.
In my very personal opinion, Ngo Cho Ho Yang Kun is more of a thesis than a style, very much like Bruce Lee's fighting methods. Respectively, it allows the practitioners to adapt the principles to be suitable for his/her frame. Even the stances vary widely within lineages in the style and within persons in the lineages.
12-10-2007, 02:33 PM
You are very welcome, again I am just sharing information.
Originally Posted by The Xia
Ngo Cho Kun is very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian. Any representations outside those areas are usually just extensions from those 2 regions.
It is also a small circle. Although we might not know each representation personally, it is easy to check who is who. If you are at a particular location or would like to know about a particular person, I might know or can ask about the person.
12-10-2007, 02:41 PM
I see that you are training with Uncle Bill. He is a great master. I saw some of his and his disciples' clips. Ngo Cho Kun (at least the one that I know) and Uncle Bill's martial arts share identical major principles. Of course, there minor differences and also power generation methods might vary.
One example will be in the sa khak ho (triangular steps). I see that Uncle Bill is big in it from the way he moves. Xiamen lineages also emphasize this.
Quanzhou lineages, especially Lo Ban Teng and Kong Han, prefer tank-like direct approach (although it doesn't eliminate the side stepping).
12-10-2007, 02:47 PM
Do you know about Ngo Cho Kun in North America? I know there is Sifu Bonifacio Lim in NJ. I've heard he's excellent. But other then him, I can't think of anyone else I know of. I can see how it's very much centered in SE Asia and Fujian.
Originally Posted by wu-ji
12-10-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by The Xia
12-10-2007, 04:06 PM
Im not a student of Uncle Bill ....but I was a student of one of his senior here in Canada.....I trained with Uncle when he came to Canada for visits every years....in fact I was his driver here
In kuntao silat and also serak silat or tjimande the entry is the footwork ....the triangle principles ...whats we call langkas tiga...other style used this pattern also like the filipino MA(pekiti tirsia I talk the style I know)
In fact Uncle Bill used mostly the pakua chang ....different of the chinese pakua but some similaritie....I think the Kuntao style of SE Asia keep the fighting or warrior way....
The triangle step is sometime very subtle ...look like a direct entry in straight line
I agree the jurus of silat look a lot like the Ngo cho kun ....
Nice to talk with you