Gun Control- Just of interest

[dnc101]

Thanks Radnoti.
Two of my favorite quotes:

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."

"Just because you are parinoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."

[myosimka]

dnc101, Actually I am of the opinion that you are exercising revisionist history as well. Short of conducting an interview with the federalists, it's not really possible to do anything but speculate. And as for your speculation as to why the amendments are what they are...Please note that the 2nd amendment clearly states the purpose behind it. And it's not defense from tyrannical governments.

Also I don't think that firearm safety in schools is the way to go. I don't think that people should be required to go through firearm training. (Encouraged but not required) Only those people who want to own them.

Also any form of gun safety program should involve discussion of gun dangers and the possibility of not owning them. Just as any decent safe sex course should include abstinence education. Education that doesn't present both sides is definitely biased. And I've read the NRA gun safety curriculum from an instructor friend-it never mentions not owning them. (He actually pointed it out to me as a deficiency in the program.) In all fairness, it was not the Eddy Eagle program. Maybe they have added a section on non-ownership. Personally I'd have to see that class to believe it though.





Radhnoti- "I feel any attempt at registration is a violation of my rights." So your children don't have birth certificates? What about bloodtyping donors? Testing for diseases? The widespread maintenance of extensive medical records has not led to a limitation of my health rights.

Also, the solution that you recommended for handling the hunters is great-1) if it had worked and 2) if I cared about catching criminals as opposed to safeguarding my home. A class where people were trained and then tested on trajectories, penetration, muzzle velocity, windsheer, gun handling and local laws prior to the event seems a better solution than calling the cops after it has happened. Isn't that the whole argument behind armed home defense: Active prevention beats police enforcement after the fact? You never addressed the safety training question. Are you opposed to that as well? If not, how would you recommend it be implemented without some form of registration? I am certainly open to suggestions. If we can implement it without registration I am all for it.

[dnc101]

myosimka,

I must disagree with all your premises (regarding my post), and therefore with your conclusions as well. I am not practising revisionest history (read on), and we don't have to go back and interview the founders (the Federalists were only one faction) to know their intentions. They were educated men who wrote prolifically and in specific terms about their beliefs, their intentions, and their reasoning in all things.

Interestingly, the Fifth Circuit Court recently completed a review of the Second Ammendment, and subsequently issued an 80+ page statement upholding the right of individuals to keep and bear arms (own guns). In backing up their ruling extensive use is made of the letters, journals and other writings of the men who authored the Constitution.

[dnc101]

Myosimka,

All classes in schools are not mandatory, and I agree that it would not be right to require everyone to go through a full firearms safety course. I do think some basic safety instruction is a good idea for everyone, but I would not be in favor of a Federal mandate for schools to do so. So we may not be too far apart on that point.

As for the NRA firearms safety courses, they are mostly written for those who own, use, or may come in contact with firearms. So they don't mention not having or owning guns. The Eddie Eagle program is based in the reality that guns exist, and therefore there is a potential for a child to come in contact with them. If this happens, the child should know what to do- leave it alone and contact a responsible adult. Yes, not owning a gun is one way to avoid what to you is a dangerous situation. But it is not foolproof. I was a rifle range coach in the Marine Corps, and it was easy to pick out those who had previosly had firearms experience and those who did not. Too many times I saw some idiot treat a military firearm as a toy, and thereby endanger all arround him.

Let me also acknowlege the fact that there are those equally (or more) idiotic individuals with firearms experience and safety training who mishandle guns. But, like any responsible group, gun owners tend to police their own. Those who irresponsibly handle firearms are severely censured, and all means are taken to correct them. It is comparable to a martial arts group correcting someone who habitually takes potentially crippling or lethal shots in sparring.

[JOHNNY]

KEEP YOUR SMART COMMENTS TO YOURSELVES!!! ESPECIALLY Radhnoti AND JON. DO YOU REALLY THINK I MADE THAT COMMENT SERIOUSLY!!!! I MADE THE COMMENT TO RILE PEOPLE UP. IT WAS ALL IN FUN. THIS ISSUE CAN BE DEBATED FOREVER. EVERBODY NEEDS TO LIGHTEN UP. I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE SHOULD NOT BE GUN CONTROL BUT ON THE STUDIES THAT I HAVE DONE FOR NUMEROUS REPORTS FOR AND AGAINST GUN CONTROL HAS BROUGHT ME TO THE CONLUSION THAT GUN CONTROL ONLY MARGINALLY HELPS. I DO NOT HAVE TIME TO STATE STATISTICS AS YOU MUST HAVE. I FEEL THAT THERE SHOULD BE GUN CONTROL BUT I ALSO BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE WILL STILL FIND WAYS TO OBTAIN A WEAPON ILLEGALY IF THEY CAN NOT PURCHASE IT LEGALLY. I AGREE WITH FMANN IN MANY ASPECTS. ALL I KNOW IS IF I AM DEPLOYED I WILL HAVE NO TROUBLE USING MY M16A2 AND MY "BULLETS". AND TO JON IF YOU WANT TO MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE LIKE A LITTLE BOY YOU CAN EMAIL ME AT THE ADDRESS ABOVE AND SAY IT DIRECTLY TO ME NOT ON THE FORUM. THAT IS JUST CHILDISH!!!! OH AND BY THE WAY THAT SMART WAY THAT YOU PUT FU(K NEEDS TO STOP.

JOHNNY
SEMPER FI

[dnc101]

Johnny, Johnny, Johnny...

If you make comments intended to rile people up, you can't complain when they take it personal and reply in kind.

But I definately agree with you about useing cleverly UNdisguised obscenities- and I applaud you for taking a stance. We, as martial artists, teach respect of others. This behavior clearly shows disrespect.

I'm not being judgemental here. I have been guilty of using obscenities, and this fact was pointed out to me. They wrere right, and now I'm passing along the lesson I learned.

By the way, Jarhead, SIEMPER FI- and good luck!

[JOHNNY]

DEAR DNC 101
I AM A BIT CONFUSED ON HOW I AM USING OBSCENITIES.
PLEASE POINT THEM OUT AND I WILL GLADLY NOT USE THEM ANY MORE. I KNOW NOW NOT TO MAKE "WITTY" COMMENTS BECAUSE SOME TAKE IT PERSONAL. ITS ALL IN FUN AND I GUESS IT WORKED. WELL THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSE AN EMAIL AND I WILL BE CAREFUL ON MY CHOICE OF WORDS.
THANKS
JOHNNY
GODSPEED
SEMPER FI

[joedoe]

LAY OFF THE CAPS A LITTLE

[JOHNNY]

Sorry!!!!!!!! Forget to take them off sometimes
Johnny

[jon]

Obviously your ego has left you without a sence of humour...
I made a joke and then tried to put forward my view on this DEBATE, i never "MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE LIKE A LITTLE BOY "
I think i will alter that right now becouse your obviously way more concerned with your ego than your points. So for this post alone ill play the 'child' and respond to you in kind.

"KEEP YOUR SMART COMMENTS TO YOURSELVES!!!"
- How did you become a moderator? You cant handle people disagreing with you or making fun of your views. You need to lighten up not everyone will always see things your way.

"DO YOU REALLY THINK I MADE THAT COMMENT SERIOUSLY!!!! "
-NO!!!! Do you really think my comment was serious?

"I MADE THE COMMENT TO RILE PEOPLE UP."
- So its ok for you to 'RILE' people up but not ok for me to make a smartass comment. OK!

"IT WAS ALL IN FUN."
- So why are you so worked up about the responces?

"THIS ISSUE CAN BE DEBATED FOREVER."
- Well this is a public forum and a 'street reality' forum at that i would think gun debate was a pretty solid topic really. Obviously having a long lasting debate is not one of your primary aims. Maybe we should all just agree and go home huh?

"EVERBODY NEEDS TO LIGHTEN UP."
- Says the man who writes a whole post in caps and uses a million exclamtion marks.

"TO JON IF YOU WANT TO MAKE FUN OF PEOPLE LIKE A LITTLE BOY YOU CAN EMAIL ME AT THE ADDRESS ABOVE AND SAY IT DIRECTLY TO ME NOT ON THE FORUM. THAT IS JUST CHILDISH!!!!"
- Your calling me a child! Your behaving like some kind of vendictive lunatic who refuses to let anyone make fun let alone disagree with him, you then have the nerve to accuse me of being a child? For what? My joke? Obviously you think anyone who doesnt see things your way is a child. Keep your head stuck in the sand its obviously worked for you so far, most likely the safest place for it.
I have no wish to contact you privately, as you have made your comment in public ill happily take up my position in the same way.

"OH AND BY THE WAY THAT SMART WAY THAT YOU PUT FU(K NEEDS TO STOP. "
- Point taken, i wont use it again on your forum... You didnt really have to repeat it either you know? Maybe you just had to give a run yourself?

I dont even know who you are ive never spoken to you but your obviously not in full control of your sences... Calm down and think before you go off on a tangent.
I had no problem with you or your views, i was just making a stupid joke. You obviously took that to mean i was somehow personaly insulting you, which says a lot for your character and ego, NOT mine.
Was a great way to meet you Johnny, I wont post here much anymore as obviously im not welcome to have my own views! Or make a joke for that matter.
Jon

[Radhnoti]

This was the worst mental breakdown I've been witness to since RENEGADE_MONK posted calling Ralek names and said he KNEW that he was No_Know and all No_Know's stuff was to be deleted from now on. Rereading all this I don't see anywhere in the thread a smartalek comment that I aimed at you. Wait a minute, let me read my stuff again....
OK, were you referring to me calling what you said an "overdone witticism"? It was a quote, in quotes because myosimka was the original author. Let me guess, you don't have time to post your findings from your "...NUMEROUS REPORTS FOR AND AGAINST GUN CONTROL" and you "...DO NOT HAVE TIME TO STATE STATISTICS" or to actually read what was written. I realize that they train you Marines to be aggressive, but c'mon...lay off the caffeine amigo.

[JOHNNY]

Okay Jon,
Maybe I did come off a bit harsh and I apologize for that. When I made my comment I put that is just my .02 cents meaning that I was just stating my opinion. You can disagree with something without making fun of there own quote. That is what made me mad. My ego is fine actually and I became a moderator by working with Kung Fu Qigong and knowing the editors. I work with them and I am helping them out due to the lack of people to go on this forum. I do not need the smart remarks as this is a discussion. My remark was not towards no one as yours was directly towards me. You are welcome to post as long as it is understood that it is a joke. You are welcome to disagree anytime with me as I do not mind. I do mind the childish remarks though. Your views are more than welcome and I never contradicted them in any way. So it is your choice whether or not to post I am here just to view and occasionally give my .02.
Godspeed
Semper Fidelis
Johnny

[jon]

Read a few of my posts and you will soon see my temper gets me into pleanty of trouble. I never like being talked down and as a result ive sparked up pleanty of times when i didnt really need to. This is looking again like one of those times.
I think what we have is nothing more than a misunderstanding, i meant what i said about only trying to joke. I only actualy posted the second post becouse i got interested in the debate. Hence my first post was just meant as a silly joke, addressing it to you personaly was a mistake. The second post was me actualy seriously trying to take part in the discussion.
Again it wasnt so much me making fun of YOUR quote, as just your quote reminding me of a comedy skit from my old work. That was a part of one of the jokes, Guns dont kill people, its the bullets. It then go's on for a few more lines which ill spare you all the pain of hearing. Again i did not mean to offend you or question your right to post anything you feel like, i just like to occasionaly make fun of serious things, dont take me to heart.

Respects and regards
Jon

[Dark Knight]

"And if you want to argue statistics, here's my favorite: In 1996 alone, handguns killed:

2 People in New Zealand

(Ill have to find New Zealand)

"13 in Australia "

Licensing of gun owners was imposed in 1973, each handgun requires a separate license, and self-defense is not considered a legitimate reason to have a firearm. Registration of firearms was imposed in 1985. In May 1996 semi-automatic center-fire rifles and many semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns were prohibited. As of Oct. 2000, about 660,000 privately owned firearms had been confiscated and destroyed. However, according to the Australian Institute of Criminology, between 1996-1998 assaults rose 16 percent, armed robberies rose 73 percent, and unlawful entries rose eight percent. Murders increased slightly in 1997 and decreased slightly in 1998. (Jacob Sullum, "Guns down under," Reason, Australia, p. 10, 10/1/00)

"15 in Japan "

Citizens have fewer protections of the right to privacy, and fewer rights for criminal suspects, than in America. Every person is the subject of a police dossier. Japanese police routinely search citizens at will and twice a year pay "home visits" to citizens' residences. Suspect confession rate is 95% and trial conviction rate is more than 99.9%. The Tokyo Bar Assn. has said that the Japanese police routinely engage in torture or illegal treatment. Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore the physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions. Amnesty International calls Japan's police custody system "a flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles." Suspects can be held and interrogated for 28 days without being brought before a judge, compared with no more than two days in many other nations. They aren't allowed legal counsel during interrogation, when in custody may be visited by only criminal defense lawyers, are not allowed to read confessions before they sign them, and have no right to trial by jury. (Kopel, 1991, pp. 23-26.)

"30 in Great Britain "

"A June 2000 CBS News report proclaimed Great Britain 'one of the most violent urban societies in the Western world.' Declared Dan Rather: 'This summer, thousands of Americans will travel to Britain expecting a civilized island free from crime and ugliness. . . (But now) the U.K. has a crime problem . . . worse than ours.'" (David Kopel, Paul Gallant, and Joanne Eisen, "Britain: From Bad to Worse," America's First Freedom, 3/01, p. 26.) Street crime increased 47% between 1999 and 2000 (John Steele, "Crime on streets of London doubles," London Daily Telegraph, Feb. 29, 2000.)

"106 in Canada "

From 1978 to 1988, Canada's burglary rate increased 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate. Half of burglaries in Canada are of occupied homes, compared to only 10% in the U.S. From 1976 to 1980, ethnically and economically similar areas of the U.S. and Canada had virtually identical homicide rates, despite significantly different firearm laws

"213 in Germany "

Described in the Library of Congress report as "among the most stringent in Europe," Germany's laws are almost as restrictive as those which HCI wants imposed in the U.S. Licenses are required to buy or own a firearm, and to get a license a German must prove his or her "need" and pass a government test. Different licenses are required for hunters, recreational shooters, and collectors. As is the case in Washington, D.C., it is illegal to have a gun ready for defensive use in your own home. Before being allowed to have a firearm for protection, a German must again prove "need." Yet the annual number of firearm-related murders in Germany rose 76% between 1992-1995. (Library of Congress, p. 69.) It should be noted, HCI goes further than the Germans, believing "there is no constitutional right to self-defense" (HCI Chair Sarah Brady, quoted in Tom Jackson, "Keeping the Battle Alive," Tampa Tribune, 10/21/93) and "the only reason for guns in civilian hands is sporting purposes" (HCI's Center to Prevent Handgun Violence Director, Dennis Henigan, quoted in USA Today, 11/20/91).

"and 9,390 in the United States."

[Dark Knight]

Makes you want to live in a the gun free country