Gun Control- Just of interest

[jon]

This is kinda starting to scare me.
I live in Sydney Australia and in a pretty bad part of town, you will 'occasionaly' hear gunshots but its not common. That said im 24 i grew up doing all the things i proberly shouldnt have, i joined gangs, i hung out with thieves, i was a little brat...
I have NEVER SEEN a hangun... Ill just repeat that NEVER...
Im happy to say that, now considering i grew up this way im pretty sure if i had lived in America i would not only have seen one i would be packing about three right now.
Im glad as hell we have gun restrictions over here, it means I only have to deal with knives rather than firearms. Thats a big happy smile on my dial when i walk around at night. Yeah if you want to hurt me you will try anyway but trust me its a lot easyer for me to defend when im not worried about being shot as well as stabbed.
I hate to say this and im sure some will take offence but i view guns as cowardly, i view people who carry them as being people who want to feel like they can take a life at any second. People who want to defend themselfs and there loved ones learn to fight and learn to look out for and avoid potencial danger situations. They dont simply 'pack heat' to even the score.


For Metal Fist
"This gun control crap is just the way in which the Socialists make their first move to make one totally dependent on the Gov't."
* Thats one of the most ammazing peices of paranoia ive ever heard.
"Their control over you is their concern and in Great Britain and Australia it seems to have worked."
*Im an Australian, now how exactly do view the govement as 'controlling' me due to my lack of firearms? Please clarify that statement, again its pure paranoia. Mind telling me who this 'Their' is that your refering to? Which international mind controling govenment body would this be?
"They think that to be secure one must give up ones freedoms"
*Again totaly paranoid and devoid of fact, what did you call freedom before guns where invented? Gunless freedom?
"My freedom is my security, especially if owning firearms is part of that."
* Thank you for proving my point about many gun owners being cowards, by your own admision your only interested in your personal security if owning a gun is part of it.
"Remember, gun control is the ability to hit your target, even when it's running from you."
* Shooting a man fleeing from you shows about as much 'control' as the average street junkie. Again cowardly act.

That was not meant for everyone only metal fist, it angers me when i think of paranoid lunatics who believe they have the god given right to bare firearms becouse they cant be bothered to learn to fight the hard way.
All those others who just want a gun for there own protection in there home i can understand. My real gripe is with people carrying them around in public and this idea that we should all have a right to carry handguns.
Im enjoying reading this though there has been some great points put forward from both camps

[fmann]

Originally posted by Radhnoti
I'm all for more aggressive prosecution of existing gun laws. I'm completely opposed to any forced training, which means lists of gun owners and could lead to denial of gun ownership rights.

Well, we have car licensing and registration to prevent people without the minimum competency to drive from owning a car. I don't really see a problem with applying a similar model to guns.

You can't show the minimum competence to drive? No car for you.
You can't show the minimum competence to safely handle and care for a firearm? Then no firearm for you.
You commit vehicular homicide or DUI or whatever? Goodbye to your drivers license. Also jail time and fines.
You commit homicide, a crime, etc.? Goodbye to your gun license. Also jail time, fines, etc..

[jon]

Car licence vs Gun licence
With all due respect this comparison is badly flawed.
I could write pages and pages of uses for a car in daily life, i can think of one use only for handguns... Killing things.
Maybe we should all be allowed to strap plastic explosive to our bodys so that incase of emergency we can have the right to suicide, plus take out the whole block

[dnc101]

A smile on your dial because there are no guns down under?
I'm sorry you feel that way. And I'm sorry you had such a rough life. And I'm sorry, you are wrong. I don't care how bad you think you are, facing several attackers armed with sticks and knives is probably going to get you severely hurt or killed, unless you have a gun. Then you might have a chance. And carrying a gun does not make any one a coward. I'd say the coward is more likely to be the one who has to go cyber to get in someones face. Don't bother to tell me all about your exploits. I'd then have to say you are probably lieing, and the discussion would degenerate into a CAPITALS CONTEST. Sorry.

Remember Jon, this is a martial arts discussion. So how is it you think we who value our rights as Americans (you may not understand the sentiment- again, I'm sorry for you) don't have the courage or the gumption to practice and learn to fight with our hands? Many of the martial artists I know do consider firearms training to be an integral part of a well rounded training regimine. But that is in addition to empty hands and other weapons. So once again, you come up short when we use the standard that you espoused. We study more than you, therefore we are better than you. Sorry, Jon.

Net let's look at the idea that those who carry guns only want to know that they can kill anyone they want. Who said that? And how did you get inside our minds to see how we think, or what motivates us? It sounds to me as though you may be applying your standards to the rest of us. Or maybe that is the attitude of those you grew up with. Either way, that is a terrible attitude to live with. I'm really sorry for you.

Jon, this is a sorry post to have to write. But your attitude evokes pitty from me. I may be parinoid, but the attitude you displayed is pathetic.

[dnc101]

fmann,

Funny you should use that analogy. Yes, we do register cars and license drivers. Who do you think owns your car? Legally, the person or entity that holds the title owns the registered vehicle. So, if you want to have your eyes opened, go and get your title. It is best to look at the "title" to a car that is paid off, that way you don't have to consider the banks role in ownership. My guess is that if you read carefully you find that what you have is a certificate of title. The actual title is held by the state, and technically that means they are just being kind enough to let you use their car. They can stop you from using it any time. And that is what those of us who oppose gun registration will not sit still for. I shoot my muzzle loader when, how and where I want, as long as it doesn't endanger you or your property.

[red_fists]

Hi.

I like the system that my Home country uses.

1.) Owners/Collectors Licence:
Anybody is entitled to OWN a Gun, It needs to be kept at home at all times.
i.e. no carrying in the street, home defense ONLY.
2.) Sports Licences:
You are allowed to take the Gun between your home and your place of sport/hunting.
Club Affiliation and/or hunting licence needs to be carried with the Gun.
3.) Carrying Licence:
Very hard to get, you need to show a valid reason for needing to carry a Gun in the street. Out of 5 Taxi Drivers that apply it is
rare that 1 gets the licence
Gun needs to be carried openly and Licence need to be shown on request of a LEO.
The Gun licence application needs to be
acompanied by a Certificate stating that a Gun safety & shooting Course has been attendet. As well as a certificate of an installed Gun safe in the premises where the holder lives.

For Licence 1 & 2 the Gun must be empty and stored/moved seperate from the Bullets.
Not all guns are legal for all types of Licences, and some type of guns are outlawed.
Each Licence(regardless of type) is limited to a certain number of guns that are registered on the Licence with Purchase Date, Serial Number, Caliber,etc.

Few People in my Country want Guns after they received gun training during the national service.

Military Gun training does not count towards a civilian licence.

Just a different viewpoint.

[jon]

WOW that was pretty nasty
For a start i tried pretty hard to say that most of my post was directed at Metal Fist who i really do think is very paranoid. I also stated that many good points had been raised by both camps. Seeing as you see fit to try and come accross all high and mighty then fine take your big stand as an American, i could really care a lot less.
Lets look at this shall we...

"And I'm sorry you had such a rough life. And I'm sorry, you are wrong."
*Im sorry you cant tell me my opinion is 'wrong' thats something you will have to have a proper go at changing, insulting me only reinforces my point.

"I don't care how bad you think you are, facing several attackers armed with sticks and knives is probably going to get you severely hurt or killed, unless you have a gun"
* My whole point was if THEY have guns its going to be impossible, it likely will anyway but i would rather not have that particular problem to deal with.

"Don't bother to tell me all about your exploits. I'd then have to say you are probably lieing, and the discussion would degenerate into a CAPITALS CONTEST."
* I never bothed to try, i told you i didnt have a sheltered childhood. Your assumption says much about your charactor, you obviously have severe trust problems and dont like people who disagree with you as you assume i will automaticaly swear and yell at you.

" So how is it you think we who value our rights as Americans don't have the courage or the gumption to practice and learn to fight with our hands?" -Insult cut out
* I wasnt speaking of everyone but i do think many carry handguns becouse they dont want to have to learn to defend themselfs properly, again you assume im talking to you personaly.

"So once again, you come up short when we use the standard that you espoused. We study more than you, therefore we are better than you. Sorry, Jon. "
* Your argument is totaly invalid, just becouse you train firearm defence does not mean firearms should be around. Over here i dont train much firearm defence becouse we dont have guns everywhere, put that in your pipe and smoke it! We dont have to defend against them becouse we dont NEED to! Your implication regarding your study is laughable, you ask me not to tell you about my exploits and then procede to come out with this rubbish. Yes your much 'better than' me

"And how did you get inside our minds to see how we think, or what motivates us?"
* It was my opinion and i stated it as such, i made no reference to any paper or evidence. Just my views im sorry you find them so repulsive.

"It sounds to me as though you may be applying your standards to the rest of us. Or maybe that is the attitude of those you grew up with. Either way, that is a terrible attitude to live with. I'm really sorry for you. "
* This is gold... Let me make sure of this, you feel sorry for me becouse i think gun legislation in my own country is a good idea?
Or is it my personal opinions on people who feel the need to walk the streets with handguns? Keep feeling sorry for me then.
As for applying my standards, i mearly gave you an example of
what its like in a country with good gun control. Obviously this is something you couldnt live with.

"Jon, this is a sorry post to have to write. But your attitude evokes pitty from me. I may be parinoid, but the attitude you displayed is pathetic."



Before anyone else gets on my case i really dont have a problem with anyone who follows the laws in there own country. If you are legaly allowed to carry a gun its proberly a perfectly good idea. I will always believe however that the best policy is simply no guns, as such i dont have a high respect for those who view them as being a necesity, thats way to easily proven wrong...
The reason for the tone in this post is becouse dnc decided to have a crack at me for my personal opinions and did so by using nothing but insults.

[myosimka]

good points and we can certainly agree to disagree. Just want to again point out a couple of things.

We can argue what the second amendment says. To each of us the wording seems clear and obviously it's not because we don't see it the same way. The courts have almost universally held that this is a state right. And in fact the wording supports registration."A well regulated militia..." And constitutional scholars are pretty much in agreement on this.

I really am in favor of safety training and yes I think a periodic(5-10 year) review is a good idea. And only with the weapons that you own. Yes it certainly seems that registration is necessary for that. (I said that before but you must have missed it) If anyone can show a way to accomplish this without registration, I'll listen. I just can't come up with one.

I am not really going to address the logistics argument as it's a new element in an unresolved debate. No point in discussing how to do it if we can't agree it's a good thing. Licensing fees could cover periodic review. Tax manufacturers of the guns to cover the safety courses. Include guns under the luxury tax laws. All kinds of options. Having paid for gun safety training, I can tell you that the expense if it were only done once with truncated challenge/reviews like done for CPR certification is not expensive. But we are getting way ahead of ourselves.

This also one of my favorite quotes:
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." Part of that means that we don't argue against common sense policies that might potentially lead to problems. Most people here are having a problem with safety training because it requires registration which could lead to confiscation. And I certainly recognize that you are practicing vigilance. But so am I. Our incidental hom0cide rate is higher than the intentional rate in many countries. That's scary to me. I want to do something about it. Safety training is the only way I can think of to reduce that(I think trigger locks are a bad idea) Institute it and exercise the vigilance by not allowing anything that actually impinges upon ownership rights. Pay attention when you vote and don't elect officials who support gun bans. Be vigilant but not paranoid. Don't let that paranoia interfere with sensible safety measures.


Fmann, thanks. Nice to talk with people and realize that people I thought were on the other side of the fence actually have some common ground. The joys that can come from civil discussions of issues rather than what usually goes on here.

Blue Skies,
Hank




P.S. dnc, I also think you have me confused with someone else. The kid with a loaded finger? Not in any of my posts but since you brought it up:"So I see no problem with the average person being able to decide when it is necessary and proper to use lethal force. " Anybody remember the Lousiana case a few years back where a guy shot a Japanese national that he said was breaking into his house. He was unarmed and found on the front porch in front of the front door. No sign of forced entry. So I think that some people do have serious problems determining when appropriate force is called for. And yes, safety training should include a discussion of legal issues. I certainly discuss it in MA classes.

[fmann]

Originally posted by dnc101
They can stop you from using it any time. And that is what those of us who oppose gun registration will not sit still for. I shoot my muzzle loader when, how and where I want, as long as it doesn't endanger you or your property.

So basically you are telling me that people will idly sit by while the supposed "untrustworthy" government confiscates our cars? Really? I can see what you are saying, but it makes no sense realistically. If the government confiscates my car without reason, it'll be all over the news, all over the media, my House Reps and Senators will be getting calls from their constituencies, etc.. It will be more of a pain for them to do it -- which is why rarely does it happen.

If you do the same thing with guns and you are properly trained to own, fire, and care for it, then if they come around and take it away, the same outcry will happen.

[dnc101]

Jon,

Yes, my post was a bit insulting, I suppose. It was a reply in kind to your post in which you stated that we who enjoy firearms and freedom are paranoid and cowards, and even murderers at heart. And directing it at another individual for the most part is a thin shield to hide behind- you spit your venom at all of us.

As for cussing at me, its been done before. My point here is that it shows disrespect for everyone reading this forum. My young son reads this, and while he has heard it to, it is a bad example.

So you think I fight like a girl? Thank you. I know a few girls that can hold their own pretty well, even with real bad boys like you.

I've never been in a stand up fight? You're sure? I could make all kinds of claims here, but what is the point? Let me put it this way- I listed my initials and my location when I joined this forum. This is a small town and the martial arts community here knows me. They can get on and read this at any time. So, I do have some accountability for what I say. And I have been in fights, some serious. And I have used a gun- and just showing it ended the confrontation. I was alone, there were two of them. One had a chain, the other a club, and they were spreading and moving so that I'd be between them. I pulled a semi-auto pistol, and they reconsidered. I'd say we all won that one- neither they nor I got hurt. So now, go ahead and tell me I'm lieing- I promise not to throw you any capitals.

I have said that all I own right now is a muzzle loading rifle. You think I sleep with it under my pillow? Wierd! Do I load it, or just cuddle up real close?

No, I don't feel sorry for you because of your views on gun legislation. I feel sorry for you because of your attitude, which, as I said, is pathetic.

As for my problems with trust, I trust those who are trustworthy. I don't view this as a problem.

I didn't say firearms should be arround because we train for them. I was refering to your accusation that we don' bother to train for empty hands fighting, we just pick up a gun and an attitude. For the record, most of the gun training we do is unarmed against a gun- negotiating skills and disarming.

I have a high and mighty attitude? OK, if you say so. Let me take this oppornuty to invite you to come up to my standard. The view is great up here, and folks are a lot nicer.

[dnc101]

Myosimka,

Maybe I did get your example confused with someone else. Sorry. But it did prompt you to make a good point. Yes, I remember the case you mention. And it was tragic. I don't remember what happened to the guy that shot the kid, but I hope he was held accountable- that means at least a manslaughter charge. If I remember the details right, I'd say it should have been 2nd degree murder, possibly even 1st.

Yes, we disagree on a lot of things, especially the Constitutional scholars. Registration and more taxes passed on to the consumer are also a problem. But we do agree on training being bennificial. And, I agree that both the legal aspects of owning and using a gun and the option and possible bennifits of not owning one should be covered. So, how do we build on our agreement without compromising either of our strongly held convictions?

A basic class, through a public medium, which covers safety, legal issues, and the option to own or not? This could be funded by the states. And I'll bend on "mandatory" if you'll bend on "every one"
( actually, the every one is a compromise for me too, but that is the only way I can see to address the registration issue).

Then how about voluntary safety, use and maintenance training by private organisations if you want it? I know that several of these programs already exist for gun owners. Does any one you know of teach avoidence and legal issues for non gun owners? Of course, the individual taking the course would have to pay his own way. But maybe you can think of some incentive to take the training.

[dnc101]

fmann,

You are correct about the outcry in either case. And our government is only as trustworthy as we are vigilant, so there should be an outcry when necessary.

[Metal Fist]

DNC101- . I get responses from Liberal/Socialists like Jon all the time when it comes to gun control and our rights. Their venomous rhetoric is, as you said, a shield(although a flimsy one)to hide behind. The fact that their reactions are so agressive and vile only reinforces the fact that they don't even have a clue.
As was mentioned in an above post, as a Martial Artist I do consider firearms training an important part of my MA training.

In response to JON and his accusations of my being paranoid and cowardly, HAH. Are you a "head" doctor? If not then you are badly mis-informed. I am neither paranoid or cowardly and if you can't see how the gov'ts of our and most of the other countries are forcefully interjecting their Socialist ideals into our lives, well then you must be suffering the "frog in the boiling pot"syndrome.
I would much rather use my fists to beat the crap out of some puke who crosses the line with me, a gun is too easy. I guess I enjoy the blood sport too much. I get a warm and fuzzy feeling when I face some a$$wipe who thinks I am a target.
Read my signature line, it's how I live my life and it applies to all parts of my life.

[dnc101]

Interesting post. You list Japan as your location. Is it your "home country"?

I was stationed in Japan in the '70s, and I was in Okinawa when we turned it back over to the Japanese. I did not know that they could own firearms. I don't even remember the police there carrying them, though I could be wrong. And I'm sure the police would have some access to firearms in any case. I do remember the red and white battons they used- and the respect they commanded from even the baddest of the bad!

One question- if (as in the first use of a gun you listed) you have a gun for home defense, what good is it to keep it unloaded? A self defense firearm is generally kept in a state of readiness, because if it is ever needed it would probably be needed immediately. This has been one of the main principles taught by all firearms defense courses I've seen. And my own (somewhat limmited, fortunately) experience bears it out. Can they get a permit to keep it loaded?

Japan is a beautiful country, and their culture is fascinating.

[red_fists]

Hi dnc101.

No Japan is not my Home Country.

As for the unloaded issue, you can have the Clip and Gun sitting next to each other.
Or have the gun loaded as long as it is on you.

But for storage Guns and Bullets are seperate.

But it is assumed that you will defend yourself against an Intruder not somebody already in the House.

Yes, you can own Guns in Japan, but it is tough to get a Licence. Those Licences are for sports shooting or hunting only.

Non-Firing Guns can be bought over the Counter for Collectors.

Most of the Gun Holders come from the armed services or from the Police.

But than I also need a Licence to own a sharpened Tai Chi Sword.
Seeya.