Question for wah lum people part II

[NorthernMantis]

Allright guys let the good part of the discussion continue in this one.

[woliveri]

ok, I'll start it off. I've heard from many sources that Jut Sow is an integral part of Wah Lum but I have never seen any of it's applications or manifestations. For an art to be so heavily influenced by it's historical technique it's difficult to see anywhere in the forms. Is anyone currently in Wah Lum learning Jut Sow training, techniques, applications?

"I want my wrestling hands"

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

How much Jut Sow training do you have or how much have you seen? Would you know it if you saw it? Could you tell me what style of mantis is seen in the beginning of 1st Form?

I'm not trying to give you a hard time but there are mantis techniques throughout a lot of Wah Lum forms. What style did you think they came from? Do you know Big Mantis?

[woliveri]

1. no I don't know big mantis and I don't think I should have to to have been exposed to jut sow.

2. it has been said by SaMantis that jut sow is a big part of the system so by big part I should see it all over the place. I don't.

As far as I know jut sow means wrestling hands. Is this correct? This implies to me that there is some close infighting techniques.

You have not answered the question. Please define jut sow and give me an example in first form (your example) that uses a jut sow technique.

By the way, I'm not asking for what you think a jut sow technique is, I'm asking what is taught by the school that a jut sow technique is.

Such as (instructor speaking):

Ok, class. This movement is a jut sow technique. Here are it's applications.

[SaMantis]

hi, woliveri

to respond to your question about jut sow, I first read this in a piece of Wah Lum literature back when I started studying Tai Chi, but I can't remember exactly which it was. I have to dig through the pile of junk that it my bookshelf and if I find it, I'll tell you.

However Hua Lin is right, jut sow is in the Wah Lum curriculum. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't mantis hands a wrestling hands technique? Because we have been learning some close infighting techniques and mantis hand plays a part in many of them.

Sam

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, here's a hint. ALL of the mantis moves and techniques are Jut Sow.

I asked about your exposure to Jut Sow because you may have seen it and not known it was Jut Sow. You went quite a way in Wah Lum, where do you think the mantis moves come from?

Why do you assume the mantis you learned while at Wah Lum is not Jut Sow? Do you have evidence to the contrary?

1. Big Mantis is Jut Sow and I think you have been exposed to Jut Sow while training at Wah Lum.

2. There are mantis moves all over our forms. I know you got higher than 1st Form so you must have noticed them.

Yes, Jut Sow means Wrestling Hands. How close is the mantis hook/elbow in 18 Elbows, 36 Hands and Lok Low? Close.

Beginning of 1st Form - open hand block/hook mantis/scrape off/grab.

If you're looking for pure Jut Sow maybe you left too soon.

If I tell you the mantis you're learning is Jut Sow and then I show you some mantis techniques do I have to specify that it is Jut Sow for each technique every time I teach it? If I was teaching multiple mantis styles like in Pong Lai it would help to specify which style a move belonged to but teaching one style it is unneccessary. If you studied Wing Chun would you have to be told it was a Wing Chun technique every time you learned anything?

I'm just trying to understand what the trouble is you're having or what you're not understanding.

Sorry if I'm getting a little short but some of these questions about Wah Lum seem a little crazy to me. We are admittedly a hybrid style yet we are faulted for not being pure mantis or pure northern. Apparently Wah Lum is not what others want it to be so they claim that as a shortcoming. Wah Lum is what it is and if anyone doesn't like it then go somewhere else. No hard feelings.

Well, I couldn't write f.a.r.t.h.e.r because f.a.r.t got bleeped out. I'm changing it to h.i.g.h.e.r and hopefully the moderator bot won't think it's a drug related comment.

[woliveri]

Ok, here's a hint.... assinine response. No hard feelings.

So your saying all the mantis techniques are jut sow? So take away jut sow and you have no mantis?

Are you sure? I'm asking cuz I have no idea? It was never taught/shown what jut sow was or how it integrated into Wah Lum.

If you ask me what a Tam Tui technique was I could tell you and I wouldn't get upset about it.

I'm asking you (or anyone) to define jut sow, and how it integrates into WL. Why tell someone jut sow is apart of their system and not expose what jut sow is?


Love ya HL,

[SaMantis]

I'm asking you (or anyone) to define jut sow, and how it integrates into WL. Why tell someone jut sow is apart of their system and not expose what jut sow is?

woliveri, hua lin just defined it for you, and just told you how it integrates into the system.

But, for the sake of learning, please tell us your definition of jut sow, list some techniques and applications. Then we can compare what we know in Wah Lum with what you've learned in a different system.

Your initial question to me (is jut sow really a big part of WLPM) was very confusing to me, as you are a former student with (supposedly) more experience. If Hua Lin knows about jut sow, and I know about jut sow, then you too must have encountered at least some mention or demonstration of wrestling hands when you were at WL.

[woliveri]

SaMantis, I don't have a definition of jut sow. That's why I'm asking. I've never had anyone from the temple discuss the issue. If it's being discussed now that's great but it Never was discussed when I was there.... ever. When I was at the temple apparrently it was different than it is now and that's great if it's true. I hope you're learning these things as I did not.

[SaMantis]

addition...

just got home from work and dug through the bookshelf as promised. Here are two sources:

1. Wah Lum Kung Fu Members Handbook, p. 25 -- Q. What style of Praying Mantis are you learning? A. Jut Sow Tong Long - Wrestling Hands Praying Mantis.
-- I should have known that right off the bat -- it's Question 4 on the FIRST TEST!


2. Wah Lum Kung Fu: A compilation of basic knowledge (The red book), p. 27 -- "The style that you are learning is 'Jut Sow.' There is no exact translation of the name, so all I can tell you is that the emphasis is on the elbow and the grabbing - close elbow work and grabbing.


oh, wait -- I just remembered another source, from class last week:

3. Si Hing: OK, volunteer, here's how we control the hand and elbow and bring the person down to the ground.
SaMantis: Arg ... urk ... sucks to be me right now ...
-- I believe there was jut sow in there somewhere. Also a fair amount of pain.

As far as book definitions go, those are the two I found right off the bat.

Sam

[SaMantis]

If it's being discussed now that's great but it Never was discussed when I was there.... ever. When I was at the temple apparrently it was different than it is now and that's great if it's true. I hope you're learning these things as I did not.

Yeah, I can't say what things were like before I got there, I'm new to the system.

However I can say that whenever I have a question about an application, I get a clear answer and a demonstration ... this goes for the si hings as well as Sifu Mimi.

Sam

[woliveri]

SaMantis,

From points 1 and 2 in your list above I knew that. From the handbook in 84 it reads:

What style of preying mantis are you learning? Jut Sow - Wrestling hands.

I'm just saying that I don't know what the h-e-l-l a jut sow technique is. Hua Lin says mantis is Jut Sow. You say "close elbow work and grabbing". Which is it? One or both? As I said before a Tam Tui technique is quite obvious in most cases but Jut Sow, to me it's just a meaningless term that I know nothing about. So we do Jut Sow, what is Jut Sow? Is Jut Sow derived from a southern system? If so is there sensitivity training that should be used to enhance your art? Is or should there be sensitivity training for Jut Sow?

[spiralstair]

woliveri: continually asking 'what is a Jut Sow technique?' when you have Wah Lum forms for you to practice is a lot like asking ' what is an apple?' to the guy at the fruit stand when he's just handed you one to eat. The answer in both cases is to experience it. The apple by eating it , the Jut Sow in WL by researching application while moving through the forms.

[Joe Mantis]

It seems that there are two viewpoint presented.

1. Wolvi is saying that he is not able to distinguish Jut Sow techniques and wants to know if it was taught to students so that they can distinguish Jut Sow Techniques. Mantis hand aside (obviously).

[Joe Mantis]

sorry i got cut off.

Since WL is a mix of Jut Sow, Tam Tui, and other styles. It would make sense to be able to identify the techniques from each of these styles. Tam Tui is not strickly a leg style so it would be interesting to know what arm movements are from there.

Also, it would be nice to know if this Mantis technique is stictlyJut sow or is it common to other styles as well.


2. Hua Lin has a point that all the mantis taught in WL is Jut Sow. So there is no reason to point out what is and isn't JS.
Makes sense.

I can understand both sides. However I don't think that the discussion of what is Jut Sow has been concluded. This was another thread. There seemed to be a bit of controversy on where it originated etc.

I would be interested to know Jut Sow basics. As well as Tam Tui basics, Such as the 12 roads.

Anyway, both points are well presented and I hope that answers can be found to satify all parties involved.