Question for wah lum people part II

[flem]

joe mantis

i don't understand the confusion on the part of those who need it all handed to them. if you have a fairly intelligent partner there are so many possibilities, as opposed to being confined to what you are shown. i don't know what you know, but an example is a strike that i was doing in 18 elbows, master chan told me that it was a scrape, now i am not the one to question "the man", obviously he knows much that i do not, however, i like the tech as a strkie, and had already used it effectively in sparring, so now i have two uses for it.
like i said before, come up with the apps, but really explore them from every perspective, like what are you leaving open for a counter, are you able to generate power using it, and most importantly, how does it work in a live situation-sparring(well, nearly live.

hua lin laoshi

to tell you the truth, i like the LM tech against a kick instead of a hand tech, this affords no opportunity of defense for your opponent, but that's just me.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

There's a middle road between having everything handed to you and having to figure it all out yourself. I believe that's the best road to take. In the beginning you need lots of examples. Once you understand how things works you should be able to see at least the basic apps yourself. Now, you can either be satisfied with the basic apps or you can dig for alternative uses of each move and explore variations. This is when guidance helps but the student needs room to explore and think for himself. Sometimes they need to be forced (by NOT giving the answers) to explore and try variations to see what works and what doesn't as well as why they do or do not work. Innovation comes from those who learn how to explore.

[flem]

hua linlaoshi

EXACTLY!

[Tainan Mantis]

Have you ever learned the first throw in judo, the one where the opponent flies over your head?
When we learn the throw it seems that no matter how slow we go in, step, adjust the feet, grab the collar and sleeve, place the buttocks etc. Every little detail is wrong. Of a 2 hour class it is not unlikely that you'll spend one hour doing one throw for a month. After a month you will have no ability of being able to do the throw half way decent on a willing opponent, to say nothing of an unwilling opponent.

Besides warm-ups you spend the rest of the time being slammed to the ground by someone senior to you. 100 slams a class isn't unusual.

In fact, by the time you can finally get all the details correct you have to do every stage of the throw in slo-mo for fear of misplacing some part of your body.

Fast forward to several years later and the throw is so fast that when it happens to you you never saw it coming. Slam! And you are on your back.

PM is full of throws. Some people say ever third move is a throw.
Others say that the hand techniques are so you can do the throw.

But, if the school doesn't have mats to let the student practice those unique PM throws in every class then it is unlikely that you will be good at throws by doing forms or by sparring on hard floors wearing shoes.

Although you may be able to take a few slams on concrete I have never heard of anyone who does power slams on concrete or wood floors for practice.

[18elders]

I see what you are thinking but if you don't learn the apps and the drills and spend your time training them you are wasting out on many years of training while you are trying to dream up the stuff.

-Flem or hua lin,
How often do you drill guo lo tzai?
Do you have drills for you sweeps(continuous 2 person), dung pu,
do you train many takedowns from a punch, kick, throws, etc.
Are you shown the proper way so it is techn. and your not trying to use strength. Then the counters to the throws.
How many fa jing drills do you do?
A boxers trainer doesn't just say go in the ring and fight, they drill him on the techniques

You can come up with stuff but if your sifu doesn't know his apps then he won't be able to tell you if what you thought up leaves you open for many other counters.

if you learned LOG and then drills for the form and then the applications and drilled the heck out of them, you wouldn't be wondering what the applications are for many years later.
Sure it's great to think of stuff yourself but wouldn't you like to know what the real intended applications is?

Learn a form and then uderstand what every move is for and be able to do drills for it and apply it.

There is a difference in knowing a technique and executing it properly. If your sifu doesn't show you how it is really supposed to be executed then you will never know.


To comment on Tainans post
does your sifu tell you or show you the throws in your forms?
Just because they show you an app doesn't mean your spoonfed and if it does i would rather be fed instead of starve.

[flem]

18elders

i don't care who shows me what, i am still going to ponder the material, afterall these "intended" moves were created by a man-just a man. you gave your response to the LOG app, did you learn that from your teacher? i think it all boils down to the person. pong lai stated that his teacher took the 7 kicks form and created a 2 man out of it, i think that is great. i also think that i can do the same thing.
getting back to LOG. if that tech that you suggested is the intended move, and even if it is not, we'll pretend it is. your way is to "drill the heck out of it". my way is to find every flaw in it that i can, narrow down the counters to the one's that work best and leave the least counterable moves, then drill the heck out of it. th

2 hand defense- in response to northern mantis you stated that one doesn't need to use two hands to defend a kick. yet in your style you defend the round house kick using both. are you saying that you "drill the heck out of it" but then don't use what you train? i'll end here since i don't know where you are in your meds cycle, any more and you'll undoubtedly miss points!

[NorthernMantis]

yu shan-

Hola yu shan, como le va?Veo que tenemos mas que un hispano en estad communidad.Si me permites preguntar de cual pais viene su raizes?

lol anyways

Northern Mantis

We did"dynamic tension strength work" in WL. Mostly as a breathing/warm-up. Often wondered about this, I to have a lil Hung Gar historia. What do you think about the beginning of 18 Elbows and 5th form? Also, single finger is southen, but, still a good mix anyway.

I havent made it that far yet.I'll let you know when I get up to that point.

About my friend he told me that his hung gar had some form and move that some other families ofhung ga didn't.I'm refferring to the butterfly palm and arrow fist.I'd like to keep his name a secret since I don't want to reveal any info about him without his permission.

5th form is unkown to me as I have never seen it and 18 elbows I barely saw.Pretty cool stuff though.

flem-

Please excuse my ignorance were you talking to me?

[flem]

northern mantis

i was referring to your double gwa choy app against a kick. 18elders said you shouldn't use two hands to defend one, i am saying his style does.

[Joe Mantis]

what are the applications to 3rd and 4th exercises?

Also does anyone have any drills that they learned to perfect the applications to WL? It's frustrating to learn movement and
1. no know what the h#@l I'm doing and
2. not have a way to work that technique with another person.

[18elders]

i guess you didn't read my post carefully.
I stated to look at your body position, it was not needed to use two hands to block the tech.(kick) he was thinking about. He is also using both hands in the same position, as you stated he is open for a head shot. I didn't say never use 2 hands to block a kick, just for what he was thinking about.

If you look at the block we do for the roundhouse one hand protects the upper gate and one protects the lower gate.


YOu look at the flaws, if you don't really know your apps what makes you think you can know what the flaw is??

flem's quote;

2 hand defense- in response to northern mantis you stated that one doesn't need to use two hands to defend a kick. yet in your style you defend the round house kick using both. are you saying that you "drill the heck out of it" but then don't use what you train? i'll end here since i don't know where you are in your meds cycle, any more and you'll undoubtedly miss points!

i think you forgot your medication, you missed the point!

[SaMantis]

Joe Mantis,

what are the applications to 3rd and 4th exercises?

There's an article in the E-zine that talks specifically about 3rd exercise (dropping horse) and some of its applications, check that out.

4th exercise (pow choy) is a drill, at least one type; you're blocking a kick, controlling the leg (as you roll out of the block) and striking pow choy.

As far as drilling technique and practicing on another person, we do that in class. I don't know what drills would work for you, but read the e-zine article and try creating your own drill based on the applications described.



Sam

[yu shan]

Northern Mantis

Hola mi amigo! Gracias, usted muestra mucho respeto. Yo soy de Florida mis desendiente son de Espana y mi esposa es de Carolina, Puerto Rico. Estoy tratando de practicar mi espanol. Esta usted en Wah Lum?
Buena suerte, trabaja fuerte!

SaMantis

There is a nifty defense using 4th exer. against a wrist grab, thanks to Leroy. Never liked the usage against a kick.

Joe Mantis

3rd exer. is loaded with stuff, let`s go over it.

[SaMantis]

A wrist grab in 4th ex. makes sense -- you would block higher in that case? (in the drill it's all low stances, low block).

You study with sifu Leroy? I met him last year when he came down for a week, he's a great teacher.

Thanks for the info!

[yu shan]

SaMantis

Wrist grab n 4th exer-It is not a block higher so to speak. Try it in a comfortable position,right hand forward,shoot left hand underneath(when grabbed) do the roll, hook out with left hand, pow chow w/right! There is other stuff.
I know you train low, which is admirable, but it`s not how low you can get, it`s application,then you go from there etc...Leroy is my brother.

[flem]

18elders

you are right in that i overlooked the body position statement, however your move is still a flaw in my opinion. i am sure it is effective in training but i find almost always best to move into the opponent when a circular tech is thrown, also, if the kick is redirected your foreward leg will suffer. oh, and your back is open if your opponent has a smoke bomb.

yu shan

sounds great, but why go to so much trouble against a wrist grab? i'd like to refer you again to that famous previous post that said one could find apps in diaper changing if they look enough!