Question for wah lum people part II

[Joe Mantis]

Quickly,

Spiral: I understand what you posted. I think that you should consider that WL is not a single style like Wing Chun, etc. Therefore it would be difficult to differentiate the techniques between the different styles. Further more Chan Pui incorporated Mok Gar (his family style) into the mix. What does mok Gar look like? what are the techniques involved.

I would be interested to know about 2nd form for example. As ide from the kicks, what part is Tam tui and what part is Jut Sow?

If you know, I'd appreciate if you would share it.

This can be a complicated issues.

[Racer X]

hello everyone, i've been reading the posts here for quite sometime,just dont post because of my typing. Anyhow in Wah Lum is there any pure jut sow forms? If so what are the names,and what level are they taught at?

[spiralstair]

For a minute consider the different Kung Fu styles as though they are different restaurants.

Each restaurant has a different way of cooking using some commonly shared ingredients and some that are more exotic and particular to the restaurant's chef.

Kung Fu students are like the restaurant's customers. Most are only interested in a meal that makes sense and is nourishing. Some people though are 'gourmets', and they relish identifying each ingredient of the meal and its proportion. They'll ask the chef, "What's in it?"
That's a game most chefs won't play with their customers. Ask them " How much salt?" A pinch. "How much oil?" A splash.

How much Tam Tui? Jut Sow?
IT DOESN'T MATTER AND THE CHEF WON'T TELL YOU.

The question is have the ingredients been combined well and does it nourish you.

[woliveri]

spiralstair: HorseHocky!!! I was a Pastry Chef for 20 years and we gave out recipies all the time. The difference is if you want to just eat and enjoy the food (forever a student) or try to learn what's inside so you can make it yourself (wanting to be and eventually becoming a master).

Joe Mantis: I had refrained from asking about Mok Gar. Since there was mention that Jut Sow was all over the place then this was a safer bet to get explained. I don't think anyone knows about Mok Gar.

[18elders]

From the forms i know and have seen i think Big mantis is a strictly mantis set, little mantis, maybe fan cha, had more mantis technique when i saw it in china.

As for the mixing, from what i have heard and others have confirmed is that Chan wan ching made up wah lum 1-6 that is why they are not strictly mantis sets.

Another curious question i have (don't get ****ed at me again) is did LKS teach both the jut sow and the tam tui as complete styles under the Wah lum name and then it got mixed by others?

If wah lum does have strictly mantis sets why weren't they mixed with the tam tui and others were?

[Olethros]

"So your saying all the mantis techniques are jut sow? So take away jut sow and you have no mantis? "

let's say you are studying 8-Step PM.
Does that mean that every technique has to have 8-steps? Does every technique *have* to contain the characteristic footwork?
Do you get the point I'm making?

[woliveri]

Olethros: No, I don't get it.

See my statement to spiralstair above.

[Joe Mantis]

WLPM "is what it is."

I agree with Hua Lin. If people don't like it they can train elsewhere.

However, I am getting a mixed message. Lineage and knowing where one comes from is important in chinese culture. Thus we have the lineage of Chan Pui - Chan wan Ching - LKS etc.
Does this importance stop at who was taught by who or is it important to know where these techniques come from.

I have found that as I investigate Tam Tui, Praying Mantis (still haven't found pure Jut Sow though) I appreciate the WL forms more.
Of course we are just supposed to do what the teacher tells us. However a mind that is inquisitive is not bad.

If no one even Chan Pui doesn't know which techniques are which, fine, just say: "I don't know." And then point the student in the direction of where they could find the answer. OR go seek out the answer yourself to tell the student.

That being the case, I'm still interested in knowing about 2nd & 4th form and straight form for that matter. Which techniques are mantis, Tams or mok gar.

____________________________
Did LKS teach praying mantis and Tam Tui as a complete system?
______________________________________


18 Elders: interesting question. i suppose that he would have taught the basics of each system first. To CWChing. Maybe CWChing combined what he thought were the most effective techniques into forms 1-6?

[flem]

WL people

and i guess that is everyone at some point in time- are you all insane?

woliveri

if you can recognize tam tui then recognize it - whats left is praying mantis! (jut sow) yeah, yeah, mok gar, family style, the southern techs are few and easily recognized.

in WL literature it was written that the style utilizes the strong leg techniques of tam tui- high and low, and that the close range tactics are mantis, seems easy enough to define.

1st form mantis- tong long deil sow, grag punch, turn look at moon/spear hand, side kick, di ma chang choy, step away elbow, the two punches in cat stance, the chin na move in hill climb stance before the kneeling punch.....
you guys must learn too fast, maybe you should stay home awhile or train at your schools after hours and maybe you could answer such a simple question- except for hua lin lao shi who appears to have already done so.

and praying mantis itself is a shaolin hybrid

[woliveri]

flem, how are the two punches in cat stance jut sow? I'm not understanding how do you know these are jut sow techniques? So your saying anything that is not tam tui is jut sow? hmmmm... So why don't we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?

[SaMantis]

So why don't we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?

Because the sign out front would be incredibly long ...

flem,

I guess we are all insane. Seriously tho, when I said (in another thread) that jut sow is a big part of WLPM, woliveri immediately came back and said, really? I studied there and saw no jut sow techniques at all (or something to that effect). Which confused the hell out of me, being a newer student, because here I was reading it right in the literature, I have si hings telling me we're learning jut sow, demonstrating it, etc. And here comes a guy who studied at WL for some time who challenges that notion. I figured, if he's got more KF experience than me, maybe he knows something. So I went and looked it up. And Hua Lin confirmed it for me.

Anyway, woliveri, if you want to learn about jut sow, ask specifically about a jut sow technique. At this point all you've done is insinuated that Wah Lum is lying to its students. Hua Lin and others have pointed out what jut sow is to you, but you are still beating this dead horse of a question into the ground.

Jut sow is defined loosely as wrestling hands. Wrestling hands is a big part of praying mantis. OK?

Now let's talk about jut sow APPLICATIONS on this thread and not ask pointless questions about what you did or didn't learn at Wah Lum.

Sam

[flem]

woliveri

the rib punch is a classic praying mantis technique, i have seen, on several occassions photos of master, no, Professor Law demonstrating the same technique, who was a well known mantis instuctor in the 60's i believe(1960)- since WL utilizes jut sow, it is safe to say...

why not reverse the name? i can give you my reasons, but they may not coincide with the original intent- 1st, the style is predominately tam tui, 2nd it came first to lee kwan shan- who must have felt it needed to be that way- out of respect, who knows, maybe it sounds better--- i personally like kick boxing better than box kicking! and third, perhaps at that time and maybe even today, the tam tui may be superior or maybe he thought so.

i think WL has worked itself into a corner because for years it has promoted the aestetic aspects and has become world famous for it's forms. it is a double edged sword really, it's huge, but the majority of the practitioners care little for the practical side- most people were affraid(so to speak) of the "best" people in the style when i was in it, but only a handful were anything but show

i personally think it has it all, and that it makes more sense than straight PM BECAUSE of its emphasis on tam tui. in the fights that i have been involved in and witnessed, long range techs dominated(used most), while close range was used effectively, but only after closing in- WL trains the body as a fight happens-except most practioners i know have never been hit

[flem]

samantis and other WLers,

o.k. samantis, lets talk about the move near the end of 16 hands- right before the double chops- long punchs in hill climb stance. i have read that it is called "two swallows fly through the forest"

{a mantis tech woliveri (same source)}

any way, it said it was used against (3) attackers, i can understand (2), can anyone figure a third- perhaps the butt attack from another post?!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

General comment to all:
I try my best to answer most of the questions directed towards Wah Lum both technical and historical. I'm not opposed to discussing techniques here but I am NOT going to TEACH Wah Lum in a public forum. If woliveri, 18 Elders or anyone else wants an explanation of the forms they learned while with Wah Lum or more insight into what we do and how we train then they should come back and continue with their training. Wah Lum instruction is for Wah Lum students only! My previous posts were intended to dispel the notion that we don't know what we're doing, can't fight, don't know apps etc. and I believe I said enough to prove we are legitimate.

There are Tam Tui sets and Tong Long sets on the higher levels that I haven't learned or seen yet. I don't know for a fact but I'm guessing they are pure forms. Everything at the lower levels are mixed. 2nd and 4th Forms are Tam Tui forms with some Jut Sow Mantis hand techniques added. Forms 1 to 6 are Wah Lum forms meaning a Tam Tui/Jut Sow mix. Wah Lum is not a school that teaches the Tam Tui Style and the Jut Sow Style, it is a style that is comprised of Tam Tui and Jut Sow techniques. Maybe that will put it in perspective for some of you.

Now. how many of you want to list the forms in your style with complete explanations of the techniques and history of the lineage?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

flem
That's Soy Long Pow Choy. I don't see 3 attackers at all but let me kick it around awhile. The obvious is cross block/side wave punch to the temple. Do you recall where you read that?

Since it is a roundhouse kind of punch could you be striking one opponent along the way to the other? Swing wide hit hit.