Question for wah lum people part II

[Olethros]

"and praying mantis itself is a shaolin hybrid"

Good point. So is there really a difference between a hybrid 300 years old and a hybrid of a 300 year old hybrid and another style? Does it matter?

So I guess for those people who claim that their style of PM is the original....which of your techniques are made up and which are Shaolin?

[woliveri]

Whatever HL, if you want to evade the question that's ok. You statement above sounds like an official temple statement. All I asked was to define the characteristics of a jut sow technique.

[SaMantis]

flem,

going through the form beside my desk right now ... my coworkers are giving me funny looks!

With the pow choy (double punches), I can only figure 2 attackers max, but if you do the move right before that (punch high, scoop, downward strike) followed by pow choy, you could be neutralizing an attacker facing you, then cross block, turn into pow choy to strike a 2nd attacker with the right fist and blocking the 3rd attacker with left arm.

Or even with 1 opponent, scoop/downward strike to trap and control the leg following their kick (from front or side), pow choy delivers a strike to the temple.

That's my impression ... I need to practice it with a partner though.

Sam

[Inquisitor]

Hey guys, I don't think you should bother responding to woliveri anymore. He's been baiting for a while... In fact, I'm surprised it's held up this long - no one has resorted to calling him a motherless son of a chihuahua, heh. I mean, come on, look at this stuff:


"Ok, here's a hint.... ***assinine response. No hard feelings***"

"SaMantis, I don't have a definition of jut sow. That's why I'm asking. ***I've never had anyone from the temple discuss the issue. If it's being discussed now that's great but it Never was discussed when I was there.... ever.*** When I was at the temple apparrently it was different than it is now and that's great if it's true. I hope you're learning these things as I did not."

"Whatever HL, if you want to ***evade the question*** that's ok. You statement above ***sounds like an official temple statement.***"

"So your saying anything that is not tam tui is jut sow? hmmmm... ***So why don't we call it Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui Northern Praying Mantis?***"


Yeah, I know, it looks like I'm just copying/pasting all his posts, hehe. Anyway, he obviously has something against Wah Lum, and is just waiting for someone to get ****ed off and try to rip him a new one.

woliveri, if you want to know the what/where/why/how/etc. of jut sow in Wah Lum Tam Tui PM, why don' t you try going to a kwoon (if there is one nearby) and asking the people there? It is one thing to compare/contrast/discuss techniques and martial philosophy on a message board, it is quite another to actually try to learn them and be able to discern them in forms (which must be watched and performed with "intent" to truly be understood).

As was said before, the original style of Praying Mantis was in and of itself a "hybrid" art. Personally, I think if you were really trying to study or understand Wah Lum Tam Tui, you would actually *do* it, as opposed to sit on the sidelines and make assumptions. And, by the way, the reason it isn't called "Wah Lum Jut Sow Tam Tui" is the same reason why Tong Long isn't called "Cheng Tai Tzu Men Tong Bei Lam Sao Duen Ngo Mi Pak Yuen Tong Bei Gow San Mui Fah Goy Sao Tong Ban Pak Ying Jow Yin Chi Fam Chi Tam Tui Lin Choy Lo Han Tong Long Quan." Now, add all the changes from the different substyles of Praying Mantis (e.g. Eight Step and Bagua, TaiChi/YinYang and Taijiquan-which was added *after* the substyle was already called TaiChiPM, etc.).

And woliveri - feel free to get all offended and write an angry reply calling me all sorts of fun names. I don't really care about your opinion of me anyhow. There are some knowledgeable people on these boards who were nice enough to attempt to explain their understanding of things to you, but it is more than obvious that you aren't really interested. Frankly, you should stop wasting their time.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri
I sorry that's not what you want to hear but that's how I feel about the subject. That's not from the Temple, it's from me. I don't see anyone else here being asked to explain their system. If you didn't learn this stuff while at Wah Lum then I'm sorry but I'm not going to teach it all to you now.

The characteristics of Jut Sow are the same as with other styles of Northern Mantis. I'm sure you don't like that answer either. You are apparently looking for something that isn't there. What differentiates Jut Sow from other mantis styles I can't say. I don't know enough about other mantis styles. Maybe the Pong Lai group can answer that since they have some background in Wah Lum as well as Plum Flower, 7 Star and whatever. As far as I know there is no super secret dim mak Jut Sow techniques. It's just basic Northern Mantis. Wah Lum uses techniques from the Tam Tui style and the Jut Sow style. It combines the two to make a third.

And you didn't ask anyone "to define the characteristics of a jut sow technique", you stated you didn't see any and wanted to know where they were and if anyone was learning them. The answer is "in the forms" and "yes we are learning them".

SaMantis
Glad to see you thinking and working it out. Backing up 2 or 3 move takes you out of Soy Long Pow Choy so it wouldn't fit the description of one move against 3 attackers. I would say take it from the cross block to the punch.

[woliveri]

That's ok HL no problem. It is a little irritating when asking a serious question about WL and then have to wade through 30 posts of "why are you attacking WL" statements. As an old student with experience with WL I was hoping for a civil answer to my question to understand what jut sow was and what parts were in the system. I honestly have no idea and frankly I've had enough of this conversation to really care less at this point.

As you know I don't currently practice WL nor do I plan to in the future. My path is different now.

Peace

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

you must have a different technique in mind, the "two swallows..." technique follows the punch at sky, then down into say ping ma- cross fists- open out, it is like a big backfist in hill climb. i could only find one source though i have seen several it is in the back of bruce lee the tao of gung fu. there are several styles represented there, the mantis photos all resemble or even mimic those in WL. two swallows fly through the forest" is pictured, but though the application is shown, its app against a third opponent is unclear.

by the way, when tong long created PM, do you think other monks said," why do you call it praying mantis, the footwork is monkey, that punch is roll in punch at ear- hey, tong long, except for the way you hold your hands that's shaolin, why don't you call it shaolin PM-- or hey, why call it PM at all!

samantis, other WLers

i just read this third page, apparrently we are on the same tech, but my understanding is that the right arm is straight- either way if you see the photo in the book pow choy will work the same- and hua lin laoshi is correct- the technique by itself takes out three by itself- w/out the previous or follow up technique. perhaps the 3rd (unseen in photo) is the cross fist, i don't know.
by the way, i appreciated your at work story, it reminded me of a student of mine several years ago who would get "caught" in the bank(her work), practicing!

[flem]

woliveri

didn't i explain enough mantis in 1st form? perhaps i don't understand what you're after. it's either that or you're on the loaded question route. in any case, i don't know what you learned, but the mantis is visible to me. i think you said earlier that you now only do internal, from my humble understanding of tai chi you're REALLY on a difficult road now

[woliveri]

flem, yeah thanks. This may sound stupid but I really didn't equate mantis techniques with jut sow even though jut sow is the style of mantis we've learned according to the manuals. In my mind I had an idea of "wrestling hands" as Sensitivity training and fighting as in a southern art. My thoughts were that there should be in close one on one training to edify these techniques.

Apparently either I'm wrong or no one else really knows.

Thanks

[spiralstair]

woliveri: Yes, you're right, you're wrong.Now time to get back on your "different path" with , unfortunately, the same person going down it.

[18elders]

form-

empty hand forms are for a single opponent, not 3 or 4 people.
That is why it is important to learn the lingchun side of a form to understand the movements you learn. You can then also understand what the other guy is doing , how he is getting around you etc.

[Joe Mantis]

Hey why is this about Wolvi?

Hua Lin: I'm glad you set the record straight about WL and how it is a combination and not two systems taught.


Everyone:

BUT NO ONE answered my question.
Even if a system is a combo- what are the characteristics of the parent system?
What techniques are mantis (mantis hands aside) what are typical Tam tui techniques, mok gar etc,?

[Olethros]

"Even if a system is a combo- what are the characteristics of the parent system? What techniques are mantis (mantis hands aside) what are typical Tam tui techniques, mok gar etc,?"

It was my understanding that Mok Gar is not part of the trad. Wah Lum curriculum. GM Chan would teach Mok gar forms, but they were clearly labeled as Mok Gar forms and not WL forms.

[Brad]

I've seen some southern in Wah Lum routines at tournements, or were these just thrown in for competition?

[flem]

18elders

i don't know what lingchun means, i assume that means 2 person, or the other side. in any case, i think you are wrong about the forms being against a single oponent. in fact, i think 2 persons are actually more limiting than regular forms because you not only commit your mind to the idea of the app, but also ingrain it through physical training. in other words, i believe it conditions you to defend against an opponent of the same style or similar anyway. but the direction changes in forms alone should be an indicator that you are training against multiple opponents, let alone techniques than attacks that are projected in more than one direction simultaneously.

my understanding of MA is that they are designed to make the style's movements 2nd nature. this is why movements are repeated, and also why there are similar but slightly different versions of techniques throughout any good style- this also explains why simple styles often beat a more advanced stylist, because they more easily engrained. boxing has few technques so they are trained, through repetition, and are immediately available for use, whereas the MAist has a mulitude to learn, it takes quite awhile before any of it even makes sense, let alone be applicable. the other thing about boxing is that the practioner almost immediately learns to hit someone and even more important to be hit, and this is done in a somewhat freestyle environment. so sigle person forms teach the style, but it up to the practitioner to ingrain it, make it second nature, the only thing missing is full contact sparring, which 2 man sets don't come close to equalling- as bruce lee said it's just another form of land swimming