Question for wah lum people part II

[flem]

woliveri

obviously each style of praying mantis differs, otherwise they wouln't have different names. i have seen jut sow forms on video, as well as several others. they all share similarities, but as far as senstivity training goes i don't know if they ever had it, though i am sure some do. but even if they were in it does not mean that the creator of WL kept them in. as i said in a previous post, perhaps lee kwan shan added the parts he thought were important at the time- considering his opponents and what they do. take for instance 2 person sets, they use the traditional chambering of the hand at the waist, this allows the defender enough time to grab, or otherwise manipulate the attack wheras we both know that we are going to hit that guy(morethan once) if they try that in real life. now i am not sure if they fought like that back then, but if so, it would be unecessary to have sensitvity training because the opponent could easily be defeated otherwise.
i see it like this. lee kwan shan was skilled in tam tui whose techniques are long range, lots of kicks etc. after learning mantis he took his forms and added the close range skills so that the forms trained all ranges of fighting, the style to me moves in and out constantly. so many people today are taken by the praying mantis, and for some reason try to seperate it, but WL is not jut sow or tam tui, it is both. either one can be learned on it's own

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri (and Joe Mantis)
Since I post from work the tension from a couple of projects that aren't working out spilled over to here. I also suffer from occassional bouts of stupidity and fail to see something right in front of my face. Sometimes I find that one of my great personal revelations is just common knowledge to others. Oh well.

Seven Kicks is Tam Tui, Little Mantis and Big Mantis are Jut Sow. Lohan and 2nd Form are Tam Tui but they have some mantis. One of the characteristics of Jut Sow is slapping the forearms which I'm sure you've seen and done many times. Jut Sow can be seen in Continuous Broadsword (monkey step), 3rd Form (mantis hook/rising elbow). Look at the beginning of Little Mantis and near the end of Straight Form. Tam Tui is characterized by low sweeps, stomping, heel kicks (we all LOVE those Tam Tui exercises ). Characteristics of Wah Lum are slapping the forearm and stomping. This comes from Jut Sow and Tam Tui. If you see a lot of stomping and slapping it's probably Wah Lum.

I'm sure you remember 2nd Exercise. That's a Jut Sow exercise. Very basic. We also do a 2-man drill based on it in order to understand the moves and get the feel of applying it on a live opponent. I think you're looking at it with a pre-concieved notion of what you want it to be so you fail to see what it is.

Joe Mantis
I don't know enough Mok Gar to know what is 'typical' of the style. Let me research that and get back to you if you're really interested.

18 Elders
The empty hands forms you're learning may be intended for single opponents but that doesn't apply throughout the Martial Arts world. There are forms based on multiple opponents. In my early Kenpo days we practiced sections of forms with opponents and there were multiple attackers. However, I do feel the trend to look for multiple opponents when searching for applications to the moves in a form are just a convenient way to come up with a quick and simple solution for the move. In some cases the move is against a single opponent and not easily recognized. It reminds me of the stories I've heard from guys that learned overseas or learned during the 'don't teach foreigners' days. Ummm, that's a block. Yea, a block. Definitely a block.

Brad
Any Wah Lum you see outside of a Wah Lum school is most likely modified. We occassionally have the opportunity to learn outside the system and draw on everything we know when constructing a show or tournament form.

[Olethros]

"I've seen some southern in Wah Lum routines at tournements, or were these just thrown in for competition?"

Those might have been a Plum flower form or included stuff from Plum flower forms. Some of those forms have a tendency to look "Southern".

[Joe Mantis]

Thanks Hua Lin.

I appreciate the reply.

[SaMantis]

hua lin,

thanks for the encouragement, now I'm looking at other forms.

In straight form, would the movements near the end -- from the grab in golden chicken stance up to the grab-leg, chop-downward movement -- be considered jut sow?

(I've gotta start writing down the names of these movements!)

Sam

[18elders]

the 2 person sets are for single opponent, the direction change is your opponent getting around you(angles, etc). YOu don't punch this guy and then joe attacks from the other side, he counters and moved. do you have angles in your forms?
do really think the sidewave punch at the end of sixteen hands is a knockout blow? He blocks and comes back at you what's your move?
Wah lum 2 person set, are you fighting multiple people? NO, does your opponent change direction? YES, did you change direction? YES

You don't like 2 person forms
YOu won't learn how to execute your techniques well and learn them well. Of course you have to get it in your muscle memory, how else do you think you will do it without thinking about the moves. REACTION. That is were your 2 person forms, drills and counters come into play. If you drill the heck out of them it becomes reaction.
Learn the form, the 2 person, drills & applications, counters and then mix and match which becomes free sparring. Like i said
before, it is a 5 step process to learning you kung fu so it becomes a reaction without thinking.


SA MANTIS-
Nick Scrima is having his tournament this year, it is only go to be for one day, April 6th i think. I'm sure they will still have a master's demo also



Hua lin- is the test in march going to be in tampa?

[flem]

18elders

i am not against 2 man sets, i am just saying they have their place- though i see that what i wrote is contrary. what i was implying was that 2 man sets condition you to respond to your partner's move, hence you are commiting to memory their attack/ counter- this puts in your "mind" a right time or only time to use your technique. so unless the free style environment makes up alot more of your training than 2 persons, then you will be screwed fighting someone like myself who doesn't know the "right" response to your technique(this is not a challenge). also, i don't understand the side wave punch thing- it is at the beginning of the form- which also helps illustrate my point. you said it is not a knock out. that's just it, it is really easy to jump around and "disappear" in a 2 person, but that just isn't reality against a real opponent. do you free spar? if so, does your sparring resemble your forms 2 man or otherwise? and have you sparred someone outside your style- way outside, a boxer, tai kwan do, etc, and again do you still resemble your forms?

[flem]

samantis

i do not know the names of those movements either, but i think they are awesome. how do you apply them, the punching and forearm slapping,that is. aside from teaching you to keep the rear hand foreward and defending, i think the slapping has several key uses besides conditioning the arms- besides a heavy bag or tree is better for that anyway. 1 is trapping the opponents arm and using the uppercut mtion to break the arm, 2 trap to apply chin na, 3 a parry to make room for the uppercut-

[18elders]

we don't just jump into free sparring in our school. We don't want people fighting without technique.
first we teach the techniques(i'll use guo lo tzai for an example).
we drill the heck out of it, paying attention to proper movement, body position etc. Inside, outside, changing stances, then once you have it down you pick up the speed and intensity. Then you go all out in a free style situation, you have to stick to your technique but the other guy can do what he wants. This way you train your technique so you don't just become a kick boxer.
If you train your techniques this way then you learn how to apply them so your fighting will be technique.
Yes i have sparred kung fu people, tae kwon do, kuk sool, ju-jitsu, karate, and boxers.
why do boxers stick to boxing? wrestlers to wrestling? They drill their technique and that is what they use.
If you drill your kung fu technique then that is what you will use.
Learning the 2 person is only one more of the steps to your free sparring knowledge.
It is difficult to explain it, if you ever come to tampa stop by the school and i could show you what we do.

[flem]

18elders

i agree with the majority of what you said, but you didn't address the point of being trapped in using the technique only as it is used in a two man. for example, pong lai said at one time that he uses the hook and golden chicken to defend the knee kick, besides the technique that i presented in that forum, that defensive posture would also be in trouble if the kick were thrown half way and then became an ax kick, or if it again were a fake or preperation for various take downs. i know that there is a counter for everything, i am not saying that that defense is bad, what i am saying is that if you are artificially conditioned to respond to a particular move then someone attacking in an unfamiliar way will probably catch you off guard. another example(sorry) if you think about it, it's actually somewhat easier to fight a person of similar skill than a novice, simply because they move the way they are "supposed" to.
oh, and one more thing about your schools sparring, i believe you learn how to fight by fighting.

[18elders]

i understand what you are trying to say but you don't become locked into that only application, it is part of the process to being able to execute your technique without thinking about it.I'ts part of your framework for your ability to fight.
You said you use that double knees together to block a kick to the knees, what happens after he kicks to your knee and then roundhouses your head off?You have to have the ability to be able to counter his next move.

learn to fight by fighting-
this is true but do you want to learn to fight using your style of kung fu?
If you don't know the technique how can you use it when you fight?
You have to learn to use your praying mantis techniques to be able to fight with them.
Anyone can fight, but can you fight using your kung fu technique:?
If not then why are you learning kung fu, just be a brawler.

[flem]

18elders
i guess we are at a stalemate in our discussion! however i can't let the round house against my tech go. 1st, the movement is foreward so there is not enough room to throw the kick and the final tech in the series will pick it up as the kicker's groin is crushed with my chop.
since you 2man guys can so readily disappear, and because your wave punch example worked well to explain your single adversary theory- what about the two kicks that take you into the 2nd pass of lo han. both are long range, do you think that anyone is that fast? i have many examples if you want them.
also, have you experienced many or any technique similarities between your present style and WL?

[Joe Mantis]

FLEM

2 man forms must be done as if fighting. Most styles do them as "dances." (Each person leads the other into a move)
Most 2 man forms are not done correctly.

Also in two person drills, (2 man forms are 2 person drills but with a lot of different techniques) one is praciticing recognizing movement and working on perception. Thorugh time and effort one becomes accustomed to the movement of opponent's body and can then respond accordingly.

Remember we are not talking about "basic self-defense" where if the aggressor does "A" then I do "B."

Any good martial arts that teaches the martial aspect depends on two person work.
Forms are just that - 2 person work.
However one must be taught HOW to work/do 2 person forms or else they will forever be in a 2 man "dance."

[flem]

joemantis

i understand what you are saying, but you are looking at it from a theoretical approach. in the nine years that i have taught, it has become abundantly clear that it is the practitioner who either comes to class with fight experiece or the one who gains it while studying that makes any real strde it understanding the how and whys. as i said before the 2man ANYTHING is just preperation but it has to leave alot to be desired. it is one thing to go full blast, be it drills, 2 man form, or whatever. but it a totally different once you get your bell rung- then all these so called advanced techniques go out the window, then you try to cover and hope the other guy is not superiorly conditioned.
i assume you are a pong lai person. if so, i suggest you spar in class or out with gloves and a mouthpiece. i would be interested to know how much of the two man skills remain intact or are used

oh, and as for your dance theory, most may dance, i never did. in fact i both landed and was landed upon on many occassions and it just aint the same.

[18elders]

i think you are you are either disageeing for the heck of it or you just don't understand.

any idiot can fight but if YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR TECHNIQUES YOU CAN'T USE THEM.

i think you just don't get what we are saying because you weren't taught the apps and 2 person drills and everything else that goes with it in wah lum.

we don't want to fight without using our techniques, that's why we drill the 2 person and counters so you will use them when you fight.

think of a fencer, he doesn't just hack away, he uses his blocks and counters etc. the person with the better techn. wins.

taking a hit- we hit the hell out of each other so we are training all aspects of it

you said you teach- what style do you teach if you aren't in wah lum anymore?

did you know art d'agastino, wallace cupp, tracey flemming, sean cochran, pablo, tom turcotte or any of their students?