Question for wah lum people part II

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

It's my understanding the the single finger is a "sign" of what group you are with and nothing more unless the Pong Lai group has a app for that move. In Wah Lum it's quite often followed by a grab like 3rd exercise. The application would be to scrape off and immediately go into the grab since you've already made contact with opponents arm.

Flem
You know what's funny? Nobody taught me that behind the knee app. It just makes sense to me, basic anatomy and physiology. Everyone has a few of these ideas, some more than others. It makes me wonder why the ones not learning didn't get together and share apps or get with the ones that did learn.

Jack Squat
Alright Jack! Now maybe you can explain all that slapping in Tong Bei? Interesting concept, I hadn't thought about it as a feedback mechanism.

Yu Shan
"It both conditions the shin area and the calf muscle,for those who have been exposed to Mantis conditioning" And for those who have not been exposed to Mantis conditioning what does it do?
"Again, why isn`t any one in WL teaching applications?" What makes you think nobody in Wah Lum is teaching applications? Did you teach any at your WL school before you switched to Pong Lai? Why not, didn't know any? You guys are constantly making that claim yet apps continue to be taught at WL schools. Give it up already. Also, I don't need a 2-man set to know how to move around an opponent. It helps, yes, but the same moves are in the forms. Or do you have different moves in your forms and 2-man sets? If so then why? "Don`t hold it against them, they just can`t comprehend" Yeah, we're just a bunch of goobers down here. So much for "I`m new here, so try not to bash me right off" from the Original Mantis Forms thread.

You guys come on with the same tired old jabs at Wah Lum and then pat each other on the back saying how great the post was. It's getting old.

"because we asked questions/Techs. people turned their backs on us" That may not have been the reason. I and others have asked questions and none of us got the cold shoulder over it.

Joe Mantis
In case you haven't read my other posts, Wah Lum does not teach the Tan Tui and Jut Sow styles. Wah Lum Kung Fu is BASED on Tan Tui and Jut Sow. Anyone expecting to get the complete Tan Tui or Jut Sow systems will be disappointed. There are some pure forms but most of it is Wah Lum.

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

you may have come up with this, but have you ever thrown a jump cut eyebrow at the end of 2 man as your partner goes for the second standing sweep- teaches your partner to watch his head! i have worked that into a two person "sticky leg" drill that includes techniques from the standing sweeps of little mantis, which as i said before, the second leg movement can be used to nullify the 1st, or regular standing sweep.
incidently, i have found that many of the motions that are "obviously" long range are excellent close up, such as the scoop that often precedes heen choy. this is in line with the online article.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Tainan
Seems you learned a different Little Mantis. Following the left Mantis Hook/groin attack the right pulls back and protects the groin followed by Dung Tui and Weong Chang Tui. Then step LHS.

I haven't tried this out yet but going over it in my mind it seems a long time to be letting someone hang on to your arm. The downward block (defend groin attack) is also a little shaky, not something I would do in that situation. But I do understand the throw now. The right palm to elbow makes the throw which was missing in LM as we learn it now. I'm not so sure the leverage is right going in to LHS for the throw but like I said, I haven't tried it yet. Also, originally there was a 3rd kick in that series so we now have 3 moves (groin protect, 2nd and 3rd kicks) missing in the example that were in the form. The throw is nice but the set-up to it is awkward. The groin attack (definitely an elbow-to-toe type move) is designed to circumvent a downward block (most likely the left punching hand retreating from the hook). See, the left mantis hook to the left punch attack would move opponents left arm to his right negating a right downward block. The most likely defend in that position would be twist to the right (groin facing to side) and block with left knee or drop left elbow (pulling out of mantis hook) onto attacking hand (crunch the fingertips). Follow with your own spear hand to groin (hence the groin defend after the groin attack). Are you putting the hook foot on the inside or outside of the lead leg?

Flem
My point was that with some common sense you can find good applications and the more you understand the more you find. I don't understand how anyone can learn these forms (especially over a 10 year period) and not have any apps. I might not have all the apps for a particular move but I have enough to understand the forms. I just see things different. I learned the forms and the superficial apps to the moves. Now I go to the next level and pull out the more advanced apps. 10 years from now I'll probably be going deeper into the forms and finding the subtle apps to the moves.

Ok, I guess I'm real dense now. You lost me on the jump cut-eyebrow at the end of 2-man. I don't remember that move or the 2nd standing sweep.

[Joe Mantis]

Flem,

I'd be very interested in what applications you were taught by Chan Pui. Especially to the higher level material. Were they simplistic applications like in 16 hands: scoop opponents leg then uppercut to groin? I hope not. I'd be interested to compare and contrast.
Thanks

Hua Lin:
I already read your other posts and understood that WL teaches a mix of PM and Tam Tui. But I appreciate the refresher.
(Not sure to what you are referring)

[yu shan]

Flem

I did`t mean it as unecessary stabs at 18 elders, never even crossed my mind, it was a joking way of kind of saying tushe. Chill man.
I am looking forward and down right excited about my future.
OUCH a mundo, the keester! Why the insult?

Hua Lin

Asking questions turning back;There is alot more to it,guilty by association with a certain Good Shrfu, nose in the air attitudes, politics, and coming from a stong school , which seemed to intimidate the Temple jocks.
As for shin/calf conditioning, 18 Elders has given you an invitation to come over?
18 Elders told me your a good guy, I must have pushed the wrong buttons, Sorry !
Train hard Hua Lin

[18elders]

i also have a different end to little mantis , we had another hook neer the end that was taken out.
We always did the 3rd kick even after they took that out.
I also do the a section of the beginning different, it was another moved that was changed but doesn't make sense to me the changed way.

[18elders]

see ya this weekend

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

in 2man if you are the original attacker, at the end of the last true run your opponent throws the backfist, you x block, he throws a heen choy you kick, etc.. after your toe/ cut eyebrow kick and punch he sweeps for your right foot, the second sweep is merely a step or slide but i have always cosidered it a sweep attempt- in any case,you jump and turn to face and meet hands. it is as you make the turn that i have applied the jump cut eyebrow
with me, i learned three different ends to little mantis. of the three it is the first that i like best, it involved coiling the right arm in past the waist after that last punch was thrown, much like it is done at the end of the first run of 2nd form when you pull up to golden chicken- except in LM you go to doo ling ma. it sounds like 18elders had same or similar. i just reread your post, i was saying that i threw in the jump cut eyebrow as a two person drill. it was not already there

yu shan

i didn't intend an insult, just a colorful example. i'll just say you guys seem happy to eat fish but do not care about learning to catch your own. and that it should make you guys wonder about your demeanor if i choose to take the side of WL as opposed to yours.

joe mantis

don't understand uppercut to groin. as for sharing ideas i am all for it. but as far as apps are concerned it seems as though hua lin laoshi and i are the only ones giving while everyone else takes. so without trying to sound insulting, you go 1st

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Lin Laoshr,
Of the several versions of this form I have seen this part seems to be common to all.

To read of the movement in a technique on a computer makes it look slow and awkward while in practice it is quick.
My only regret is that we don't yet have the technology for me to put a video file up.

[Joe Mantis]

FLEM

Shoot, I answered you on the other thread. Darn it.
Anyway.
I'm talking about 16 hands - scoop chow choy, bean choy movement.
Check the other thread. though.
thanks.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Yu Shan
That's kind of where I was going with my post about you guys having a common denominator (AD). Leroy manages alright though. I think he makes an effort to stay close. 18 Elders and I get along fine, we understand each other. I believe I'm welcome there.

18 Elders
Thanks for the good word. I also kept the 3rd kick for a long time but since I have to teach without it I've given it up. Personally I like it there. I don't recall another hook at the end so I guess that was before I got there.

Flem
I get it on the 2-man. I forgot there are actually 2 sweeps since they're so close. I'll have to try that out. What do you think of the Little Mantis throw?

Tainan Mantis
It's rough trying to get the feel while visualizing. I like the concept but I don't really feel comfortable applying it in that situation. It still feels awkward and I can't imagine hanging onto the arm that long.

[Joe Mantis]

Flem / Hua Lin

Did you learn any drills to work the applications?
I've discovered that knowing what a move in a form is one thing, and then doing it in a drill is another. i think that this is the next step to applying what one learns. Or the next step in the apps.

Appreciate the feedback

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

i understand the throw but it's too complicated for me. personally, i never enter with the idea of throwing in mind, knowing the energy and leverage principles, and being able to throw or keep from being thrown is my priority, incidently, i try to avoid the lay horse as much as possible.

joe mantis
i'm not sure what you mean by drills i guess. i assume 2 person work, in whick case i try to use everything, especially those techniques that are throughout the style. the best way to do it without someone "feeding " you is to get a partner, and for training this a regular partner is best as you can both go home and contemplate the "perfect" response to their move. start with a jab, or whatever, they counter, you counter, throw in every "what if" you have, always keeping in mind what your "natural" response is. you may notice, as i did, that almost every move has a variety of differences throughout the system. for example, in 16 hands the transition or forearm block between chow choy and bean choy cuts across the sternum, however, the counter could be a low uppercut, in which case the forearm is draw down and across, like at the beginning of the last pass in straight form.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Joe Mantis
We learn some drills but in my opinion not enough. It seems like different Sifu's know different drills depending on when they learned. 18 Elders has more insight into what the other Sifu's know and share since he was a Sifu in Wah Lum. From the little bit I've seen I think there should be more sharing of drills and techniques but maybe I'm wrong. I think quite a few think forms are all the drills you need.

Flem
I like the movement of the throw (actually I prefer to turn and snap the arm instead of throw) but I don't feel comfortable with it in the context of Littlee Mantis. It doesn't seem to fit there well. It could be that it's new (new techniques quite often feel funny until you get used to them) and I'm just not doing it right yet. Like I said before the block for the groin attack is real awkward and not something that fits there. And the groin attack, when done properly, gets around the block.

[Joe Mantis]

Flem:

My concept of Drills are the working of techniques with a partner. Where each person alternate using the same techniques. eg. i go, partner goes etc. Normally stationary. I guess like Wing Chun chi sao, but limited to only 3 or so techniques. Of course working leg techniques there would be more movement. Not free sparring though.