Cross Training?

[yenhoi]

I also 'crosstrain' and find there is no real confusion between 'styles.'

You should train your body and your skills, not some 'style' or its look or feel.

[apoweyn]

do you consider yourself to study one art primarily and compliment it with others?

not at this point, honestly. when i studied taekwondo, that was all i studied. when i studied eskrima, i considered myself an eskrimador with a background in taekwondo. now, i don't really think about it that much. i can do what i can do. if i have to address the question, though, i describe myself as a mutt. taekwondo, eskrima, and kickboxing. it's not especially descriptive, but it'll have to do.

that said, i do think that eskrima and kickboxing now form the... filter(?) through which new experiences pass. i concentrate on empty hand nowadays. so when i encounter, say, grappling, i'm thinking 'how would i transition to that move from my kickboxing stance?' or 'how would that footwork affect my ability to punch or throw a round kick?' that sort of thing.

it's not really a question of political or familial allegiance. i feel a loyalty to most of my past instructors in some sense. they deserve my respect in all cases. my friendship in some cases. but in any event, my 'primary' style is more a question of a frame of reference for new information rather than a school or stylistic affiliation.

what does your primary instructor think about your cross training?

oddly, i do consider that i have a primary instructor. he's not my longest-standing instructor. but he is the one with whom i relate the most in training terms. he's part of dan inosanto's lineage(though he doesn't use the term JKD much anymore, preferring to avoid the issue much as i do). anyway, given his background in bando, shooto, taiji, eskrima, etc. he keenly encourages crosstraining.

if you have a primary style, how often to you train it and your other style/s?

well, i tend to think in terms of... modes, i guess. and right now, i tend to take my training opportunities where i can get them. so i've trained recently with a group of tangsoodo/karate practitioners and now with a taekwondo/karate practitioner. both afford me the opportunity to work on the kickboxing 'mode.' weapons, i haven't had the chance to practice lately (and frankly, i'm more interested in empty hand right now anyway). and grappling, i'm hoping to get more involved with in the near future. so, without thinking in terms of individual styles, my training is about 99 percent kickboxing/striking.

are the styles complimentary?

given enough time and thought, most styles are, to my mind. it's not a question of finding the right jigsaw puzzle piece for the hole. it's a question of making the necessary adaptations in both bodies of knowledge to adapt them into a workable whole. for example, if i'm going to use a more squared kickboxing stance, and i want to throw a sidekick, i need to work out how i'm going to transition my leg into the proper position. if i used a more side-on stance, that wouldn't be as big a deal. but then, i couldn't throw that rear cross as readily. so i have to figure out how i'm going to reconcile those things. a turn of the hip here, a shift of the foot there, and i'm all set.

do you find yourself getting confused with techniques etc?

nope. provided you're in an environment that's more concerned with principle than detail, that's rarely a problem. i may not parry exactly the way a wing chun guy might. and if i were being judged by a wing chun standard, i might have problems. i might get confused between my wing chun parry and my eskrima parry. but if i'm being judged on my ability to get either my face or the opponent's punch off of the line of engagement (i.e., if i'm being judged on the effect rather than the form), there's not much to be confused about. understand the principle, perform the function.


stuart b.

[MightyB]

I read that Chuck Norris semi-autobiographical book "Secrets to Inner Power" or something like that, and he summarized cross training about as nicely as I've ever read. He likened martial arts training to spokes on a wheel. You divide the attributes into categories like striking, grappling, longevity, kicking, internal development, combat,... however you like, you decide, then he makes a graphical representation of each of them seperately in the form of a bar for how he feels about his own skills in that area. Then he arranges the bars into a spoke-like-wheel pattern. He looks at the pattern and it tells him instantly where he's not balanced, and then he works on "balancing his wheel".

[Kempo Guy]

Taoboy,

My primary art is probably JKD Concepts and Nejia (primarily Xing Yi and some Ba Gua). I also study some grappling. I train Neijia about three times a week and JKDC about one to two times a week. My Grappling is a part of my other classes.

I don't really distinguish these arts as seperate units, rather I look at these styles to develop my skills in different areas (attribute development), similar to what 'MightyB' paraphrasing Chuck Norris above.

For instance, my Neijia teacher does not teach forms as much as principles of the art, which makes moving from one 'style' to the 'other' quite easy. It's more about body mechanics, structural alignement, power generation, force vectors etc. Learning an art this way makes the different styles easier to integrate.

On the other hand, my JKDC instructor uses many of the ideas of Matt Thornton, Paul Vunak and Tony Blauer. Since most of our training here is 'sparring' based, I can integrate the principles I have learned in Neijia to what we do. Also, the JKDC compliments as I'm learning more about 'fear-reactivity', 'adrenal response' by doing scenario based training and other drills.

Since neither of the 'systems' I learn are technique based, it makes it much easier to integrate these together as there never are any conflicting principles. Good body mechanics is always good body mechanics regardless of style. This is what both my teachers have shared with me. I feel pretty fortunate as both my teachers are pretty open-minded and don't mind their students experimenting with other arts as they both have learned from numerous teachers in various systems.

I don't know if this is the type of info you're looking for but...

Later,
KG

[TaoBoy]

Thanks guys.

That Chuck Norris idea is a good one...I'll have to use that...at present that wheel would not be looking particularly balanced.

Cheers.

[Octavius]

For those of you who have a solid foundation in one art, and cross train in another art...

Does it/has it happen to you that (I guess mostly in teh beginning of the second art) when you start in your second art, altho you're pretty good/decent in your original art, none of those skills really translate over and you feel like you suck in your second art just like a newbie? I guess a third person would say that you're doing well, picking things up, but you yourself feel like you _could_ be doing so much better, but you're not? (This is assuming that you're being serious and true to learning the second art as is - with an empty cup, such as it is...) I guess we have good days and bad days, but man, today was a bad day. Thought I'd like to hear from some other people's stories...

[Mr Punch]

My aikido teacher, and I think this is fairly common to aikido and trad Japanese approaches, used to say, "Every time you take the bow (at the start of the class) you should forget everything"... meaning the stress of a long day at work, all your previous overanalysis, self-critcism, mistakes etc.

Of course, some students would take it too far, so we all had name tags.

Of course, this is also a reason why all aikidoka suck.

But seriously, from my experience, and certainly when I have begun a new art, you should start every class with an empty cup. In that way you can prevent yourself from overcriticizing your every move and dwelling on your past failures, and can have a better chance of absorbing new stuff as a reflex, IMO.

As for my personal cock-ups, when I started karate I was always trying to angle off the blows and move offline like in aiki. When I started wingchun I was always trying to move offline and retaining the opponent's arm too much and often instead of that explosive trappy/jerky energy. When I started kendo I was always moving offline, striking/kicking to the legs, cutting too straight through, and moving forward with backweighting.

As I progressed in karate, my teacher told me to angle off the blows and move offline. As I progressed in wingchun, my teacher told me to step offline more to cut the angles, and sometimes to retain the arm. As I progressed in kendo, my teacher beat the living bejoolies out of me... but at least he told me to cut straighter through.

Keep trying, start every class with an empty cup, and you'll realize it's all the same. Except BJJ, which is apparently about doing someone in the dog.

What are you studying and what's your problem?

[sanjuro_ronin]

So...why'd you do it Paul?

Seemed like the thing to do at the time !

While many like to critique those that cross train in various systems, usually without asking/knowing why, the vast majority of people that do MA for practical ie: fighting purposes know the reason.

That said, usually there are other reasons too.

When I started MA in 78 I started with Hung kuen and did it till 82 when my folks and I moved back to Portugal, where there was no "kung fu" at all.
Well...not "offically"in my area, but more on that later.
So in Portugal I took up Boxing, wrestling at the local sports club and then Karate and Judo, and did that for 5 years.
During that period I was introduced to an old gentleman from Macao ( via his nephew) and he taught us "kung fu" ( hung Ga and WC), I did that for the last 2 years there.
When we moved back to Canada, the nearest MA school was a TKD dojang and since m y kicks needed work ( I liked TKD kicks ) I joined.
I was already a BB in Karate, a brown in Judo and had a nice Junior record in boxing from my time in Portugal.
A couple of years after that, I was re-intoduced to Kung fu via the JKD way and took up judo and boxing again ( ah the energy of youth),
I moved away from the TKD Dojang and as such had to stop training it, but hooked up with another place for about 2 years and then stopped at altogether.
Before I joined the army in 94 I got my nidan in kyokushin and shodan in Judo having done both at the same time over a span of 4 years.
In the army I kept up my boxing and judo and karate, while be introduced to MT and some Sambo.
After I left the Army in 98, it was back to kung fu for a bit, Hung kuen again.
I stayed there till logistics made it impossible to continue in 2000.
Then came BJJ/MMA and finally, over the last year or so, FMA.

Now, during that period of time there were many competitions and matches and fights and working as a bouncer and such, much like most MA, it was the testing phase if you will, there was much cross training with other like minded individuals from different systems.

So, one of the reasons for cross training sometimes is simple logistics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That said, there is also another reason, a far more practical one.
Specializations.
If you wanted to learn how to pain, would you go to a painter or general contractor?
Exactly.
When I wanted to work on my kicks, TKD seemed quite logical, but not just any TKD, it had to be a practical one, and I looked and found.
When I wanted to work on infighting, that was trickier, to say the least.
WC AND MT filled the bill quite nicely, but for different parts.
Was there infighting in Boxing? in karate? of course, to the degree of WC? No.
To the uniqueness and effectiveness of MT?
No.
When I wanted to work on ground work in a MMA format, BJJ made all the sense to me.
Judo had ground work, but to the extent of BJJ? No.

When we want to to develop certain skills to their highest level it makes sense to train in those skills with those not only specialized in them, but to the highest level we can get our hands on.

Common sense.

[xcakid]

For me it started out as complete ignorance. Then it became a matter of convenience. Now its more towards good instruction.

My dad took me to take Sil Lum 5 animal as my first foray in the MA. I got bored with it. Friends were taking Shaolin Kempo and I got sucked into that. In the meantime, dad said I should learn my national art which is Arnis. So I took that too.

As I got older I took TKD cause it was the only thing around while I was in the military. Then after the military I found another Shaolin Kempo school and decided to continue on with that. All the while still taking Arnis.

Then I started taking Ying Jow Pai cause I have had enough of the SK organization I was with and Ying Jow Pai school was near me.

Now my long fist school is quite near my home, but regardless, I think I would've travelled to this school anyways.

[unkokusai]

So, it seems that a lot of 'crosstraining' happens as a matter of circumstance and opportunity rather than as a planned diversification of skills and experience.

That's how it has been with me as well.

[Lucas]

Where there is a will, there is a way.


One is not always permitted the luxury of locality, nor of stability in life.


To the ancient warriors this was a matter of life. Especially when we speak of nomadic tribes of man whom were consistantly on the move.


No one is the same. Each person will have a varying degree of comprehension involved with understanding the relationships of combat.

For some there may be larger gaps than others. Some just 'get it' a lot faster than others, thus requiring dedication to one particular aspect less. Less time needed to develop a skill set in regards to specific elements of martial prowess.

MANY simply do not understand this.

[SoCo KungFu]

I'm kind of a mix of both necessity and interest.

My first kung fu teacher taught out of a friend's dojo....

There we had San Bao Pai (northern mantis/Pai lum mix), Taiji, Okinawan Kenpo and Arnis

So...I took up Kung fu and Taiji....

Started to take interest into Arnis and so when I could I started to mix that in when I could. Not on a regular basis, maybe 3 or 4 days a month. I didn't have to pay though since I was pretty much one of the more regular students and I'd help out with things for the school when they came up.

Later I joined the military. Went to Japan. Looked around at what was available. Judo dojo was too far from the base as was this awesome gym that worked K-1 rules kickboxing. So the closest thing was Aikido. So I did that while trying to go to college. Met a guy that did some boxing when he was younger and bodybuilding. So started working with him, he'd show me stuff about weight lifting and some boxing and I helped him with his kicks and flexibility. Eventually had to cut back though. Waking up at 4 to go lift...then be at work til 5pm. Then with college 2 days a week and Aikido another 2....I just couldn't keep up burning the candle on both ends. So I had to cut the Aikido...as much as its sucked..but I need my education....

Actually there was a guy on base there that taught what he said was Sei Kahn Shaolin Kung Fu. Yeah went there about two weeks. It was really Shaolin Do. Another friend there that did SD for like 8 years went as well, he's like yeah...its the same curriculum...same story...its SD. Not knockin SD though....the reason I left is because I was training (usually the sifu would work with me himself because he knew I had a background) but one day another student came up and started trying to "correct" me. I was polite, didn't offend...though what he was saying was hogwash. I asked him how long he had been training (he was a blue belt, about half way up their rank)....he said 8 months....so that was the end...oh and that the only sparring was point...and no head shots...

Anyways...came back to America at the end of 2006. Found a Hung Gar kung fu school about an hour drive. That is far, but I met the sifu and liked what he had...so for me it was worth not getting to sleep until midnight on training nights.

Now I'm in Charleston. Too far to make it to the Hung Gar school now...like a 3 hour drive. But there is an awesome group of guys that work BJJ...and its great because I want to work my ground. So now I'm here, still really new. Just trying to survive mostly. But my defense is getting better. No more 30 second taps....I can roll about 3-5 minutes sometimes before they finally pull me. A lot has to do with my conditioning too, I think as it gets better I last longer.

Honestly I think I was lucky. I started off in a school that already had a "cross-training" mentality. Sifu crossed JJ himself and so he always was encouraging to that effect. Then going to Japan...probably one of the greatest experiences of my life.

[David Jamieson]

I do boxing workouts, I lift weights, I work with a swiss ball and body weight, I do rips from other peoples systems routines, I practice more than1 style of tcma and i include methods from jma and kma as well as wma in my regular routines.

There is nothing wrong with diversifying your regimen so long as you are doing it correctly and effectively and not letting one set of things impair another.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do boxing workouts, I lift weights, I work with a swiss ball and body weight, I do rips from other peoples systems routines, I practice more than1 style of tcma and i include methods from jma and kma as well as wma in my regular routines.

There is nothing wrong with diversifying your regimen so long as you are doing it correctly and effectively and not letting one set of things impair another.

A good point David, one that has been used to (erroneously) point out the short comings of what some believe cross training can lead to.

In my case, because one can only truly speak for themselves, the systems I have trained in had similar power generation in terms of basics and all how the same view on how that shoudl "change" as one became more advanced.
Kyokushin, MT, hung kuen, all have the same basic power generation and all "lead" into softer, shorter, power as one advances.
The WC, and SPM I have been exposed share many of the qualities of the kali/escrima I have done also, but are rather unique in their power generation, BUT, I notice that the basic core power one gets from the "longer hand" styles fits nicely when you "shorten" to the short hand styles.

Chen Taiji seems to be, on the surface, a whole new type of power generation, but as you learn more and experience more you see that it is just more "advanced".
There was a reason that Oyama told many to seek out Taiji.