"Tun To Fau Chum" and tendon

[mantis108]

Hi everyone,

Good to see you guys. Like my friend MoQ said this indeed going to be a special X'Mas, Even Integraman is back (How are you pal?)

First off, it is not without great hesitation that I responded to CriCri's post. He's a great guy and a good friend. Can't let a friend down. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I also would like to bring the discussion of Bak Mei up a notch which is why I posted the above and to hopefully inspire a more in depth understand of the style. Beside, I love technical discussions.

Let me have a chance to address my friends first:

Kull,

It a pleasure to have your input.

Burn the Wikked,

There is still fire in you.
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Meltdawn,

Thank you , Thank you and Thank you [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

MoQ,

Interest insights as alway, thanks.

ShaolinMaster,

Indeed, it is nice to have valid technical discussion and your input is greatly appreciated.

Integraman,

Direct and to the point as always, my friend. Please see my following post.


Almost forgot...

FT,

Hello, kitty.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[mantis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In your message, you mentioned "learning a higher level of Ging" and goes on listing the 4 keywords.
If it is alright with you, care to further explain them, ie as to what they mean, how are they relate to Tun TOu Fou Chum, and how are the 4 keywords being classify as the higher level of Ging?

Feel free to email me privately if you want to. I believe you have my contact email.
Have a good day friend! Thanks in advance!

Integraman [/quote]

I mention briefly about the 4 Gings because the orginal question was about the Tendon and TTFC. Since you are interested and I am glad that you have a keen mind picking it up, I would hope to further Bak Mei technical discussions.

TTFC is the bread and butter of Bak Mei. The teachings of this style are closely related to one and other. It is like the Ying/Yang symbol that they are integral parts of a larger whole. Understand the 6 Externals and 4 Internals is only the begining meaning you have acquired certian proficiency but really doesn't mean you are a master of the style. The 4 Gings, which I mentioned, has 2 layers. On a superficial understanding of them would seem that they are merely a discription of types of power. IMHO, they are not just that limited. There are in fact mile stone (stages) of proficiency and manifest in that order also. Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock) are stages of developement.

Jik Ging: As a power, it is direct and forward (this is of ulmost importance). In Bak Mei, one forges ahead never back out. This is evident in the format of forms like Jik Bo, Gau Bo Tyui, Sap bat, etc... The accomplishment of this stage is techniques are clean and crisp. Extended tools never needed to be retrack. It charges on relentlessly.

Chum Ging: As a power, it is "heavy" and sticky. Let said you "Chi Sau" (to borrow a Wing Chun analogy) with someone you can wear the guy out if you have Chum ging in your Tan-Bong-Fook. The achievement of this stage is the Iron body. With the TTFC and other Kungs. They "sank" into your bones (rather developed thick proctective "tendon" so to speak)

Sing Ging: As a power, it is "light" and uprooting. This leaves the opponent feels that he can not root himself properly and that you provide not a hint of leverage for him. At this stage, you have full command of your body even the "outer kidneys (for guys only). You want to drop someone you drop him with great ease.

Gang Ging: You are pulsating with energy. You are awaken. Any angle, any plane, no problem. It "frieghtens" and "shocks" (as in electric current) people; hence, Gang Ging.

All in all, there are always the 6 Exs and 4 Ins. Just that they are transformed into higher plateau.

Anyway, just sharing my limited knowledge.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[fiercest tiger]

very good answers from everyone, it shows that we all seem to know about this topic [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

i look at fou chum tun to as the motor, the rest of the body is the delivery system. a question for everyone with training FCTT, are you taught dip gwat gung- rib, muscle training when learning these 4(FCTT) OR your not taught this? i think you should at lest understand the rib training, because it can really open up doors for you FCTT skills.

thanks guys! oh and gals


[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

I really appreciate your response to my questions.
I truly value the willingness of you to share your knowledge not only with me, but with the rest in this open forum.

Integraman

[MoQ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Fast glycolytic has the largest diametere and produce the most powerful contractions, but they have few blood vessels and few mitachondria, therefore they appear white (like tendons). We all know how fast and powerful a shark is when it attacks its food. Interestingly when u dissect a shark lot of its muscles appear white. I don't remember the percentage of white to red muscle, but i know it is high. I haven't studied the squid so i don't really know its physiology, i do know it is made up of mostly connective type tissue. I think it moves by sucking and shooting water out, like a jet engine does to air. [/quote]

Other than the waterjet propulsion miss, this is pretty much my point. Good to have the help from the young and schooled.

Of course Meltdawn has a good point with the reaction thing. It being all fig.8's, since there are no straight lines per se, where it starts and ends may not be the point.

The "muscle" idea is fine, except that naturally it's the tendons that attach them to the bones and we all know we aren't talking about "strength".

It's cool that everyone is their own resident expert. It's great to have one around the house... *moan*

[kull]

You are right! What you describe is what is called the "myotatic stretch reflex" This reflex action is a muscle contraction in response to sufficient froce encountered suddenly that cause it to stretch. it happens to prevent tearing of the muscles. Therefore it is a very powerful contraction, even more so than any consciously generated contraction. The first ppl. to do studies on this as the eastern european countries namely the Russians. They called it shock training, i think.

When we see how a tricep moves in a punch or chop in bai mei it becomes more clear. For all bai mei ppl. iam sure your teacher would say THROW ur punch out and let it snap back naturally, don't pull it back, then quickly go into next move, right. When the tricep contracts and extends the arm ,as in punching, the force generated by the fast glyco. fibers is so powerful and quick that it snaps the forewarm backwards stretching the tricep, when this happens the "stretch reflex" contracts the muscle to stop the movement, b/c of special fibers called intrafusal fibers, surronded by nerves that sense this could damage the muscles. Since muscles have elastic qualities (as stated by meltdawn) they can store a portion of this energy generated by the stretch reflex and subsequent extention type contraction would be even more powerful. Research has shown that a muscle that is streched b4 a contraction will contract more forcefully and rapidly (Bosco & Komi, 1980 Influence of countermovement amplitude in potentiation of muscle movement). But in order to take advantage of the stored energy the subsequent muscle contraction MUST be smooth and done QUICKLY as possible. Otherwise look like taichi, LOL, just kiddin, no offense to TC ppl.

That is why bai mei moves are "jingy" like spring and done at top speed. Of course the ancients did not analyse this way. They were able to intuitively apply this with terms like Fa jing, qi, nei gung... But i still can't figure out how other phenomenoms of qi works like bai mei iron shirt, LOL.

[kull]

Oh yes, we can see this action in many bai mei exercises to help improve power and also in modern training sports. We have seen boxers who do push ups quickly and clap while in air. This exercise takes advantage of stretch reflex response.

[meltdawn]

Oh, wow, this is great!!!

Kull, thank you for the awesome compliment in putting technical terms and research behind my suppositions.

FT, thanks for acknowledging my gender.

Mantis, you da man. Awwww yeah, baby!
I have more questions:
"Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock)" Do you suggest they be learned in this succession due to advanced concepts?

Since these are ging manifestations of which we speak, they happen in an instant. Describing each in technical terms seems important to clarify my own understanding. Please tell me if I'm on the right track.

jik = linear power (uh, in a circular sense)
chum = downward levered power
sing = upward levered power
gang = wow, this one is tough. Would it be suction power? Sorry, having a hard time... I mean more like a strike aimed to take the opponent's innards out.

Thank you, you've taken my study up a notch. Now I'm going out to practice!

Meltdawn

[mantis108]

Hi all,

First off, thanks for the support from all of you. Including you, FT. I am impressed that you don't put the "I knew more than you do" statment. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img] Freshing indeed. Also, it is wonderful to have inhouse scientist on Bak Mei's side. *thumbs up*

Integraman,

My pleasure my friend. I often think that secrecy thing put the study of a wonderful art in jeopardy. Many real meaningful stuff lost at great cost to the generations to come. One of the reasons why I decided to post again is that I saw a VCD (thanks to LU) on Gau Bo Tyui from Mainland China. It is sad that it went onto the lost path of WuShu. I was horrified by it. Besides, my friend, I know you would put it to good use. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
I believe in lead by example. If I am to learn from others, then it is important to "throw a piece brick to entice a piece jade." Anyway, thanks for your Kind words and support.

Meltdawn,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock)" Do you suggest they be learned in this succession due to advanced concepts?[/quote]

As stages, yes (except Gang (enlightenment) can happen any time). Also, they are more the result of the work being done. You might said there is nothing to learn. It would be a natural progression.

As power, you can't really divide them. As a Taoist, one can hardly fall into extremity.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Since these are ging manifestations of which we speak, they happen in an instant. Describing each in technical terms seems important to clarify my own understanding. Please tell me if I'm on the right track.[/quote]

Again, labeling things are for the intellectual mind not for the intuitive teachings.

[qoute]jik = linear power (uh, in a circular sense)
chum = downward levered power
sing = upward levered power
gang = wow, this one is tough. Would it be suction power? Sorry, having a hard time... I mean more like a strike aimed to take the opponent's innards out.
[/QUOTE]

Jik articulates directness, economy of motion, etc... like fire and water.

Chum is like lead

Sing is like mercury

Gang is Vajra (thunderbolt, golden pill, or whatever label). Think of it as alternate current. Meditate on the 8 Trigrams primodial arrangement (as a Mandala), it articulates the explosion and inplosion concept. It's always Ying/Yang.

Side note: I Ching has lost of Taoist wisdom in it. It goes hand in hand with the study of Bak Mei.

Hope this helps

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

Mantis108,

I agree with your POV that the theory and mechanics of power generation is dualistic in nature, meaning that one aspect cannot function mutually exclusive of another aspect. They are complementary in nature. For those who has difficulty to understand Tun Tou Fou Chum, one easier way to understand this at least in my understanding is to that anything that goes up must come down, and anything that goes in must come out.
The understanding of external harmonization and correct physical structure have to take precedent over Tun Tou Fou Chum as inability to grasp and internalize the correct structure implies the failure to fully comprehend Tun Tou Fou Chum.
While I applaud the breaking down of the power generation mechanics into biomechanical manners, it is only partially "correct" in the sense that biomechanical understanding will bring you only to this far, but as advised by our friend, Mantis108 which in my opinion is very true is that the contemplation and meditation of the dualistic principles can shed many confusion and bring about enlightenment.
Hope this helps.

Integraman

[Shaolin Master]

Western Anatomical Features :

TENDONS
- A Muscle is usually atached to bone/or cartiladge via a tendon.
- A Tendon is a tough cord of connective tissue composed of closely packed collagen fibres. It is extension of the deep fascia and/or the epimysium surrounding the muscle. It extends into the priosteum that covers the bone.
- Other than simple being attachments, tendons add length & thickness to muscles, it is extremely important in reducing muscle strain and it adds strength to muscle action.

MUSCLE ACTION

1. Agonist (Prime Mover) - ie primary muscles responsible for movement.

2. Antagonist (Anti-Prim. Mover) - Opposes the prim. moverement in a subtle way. Not when contracting but only at the end of a strong contraction to protect the joints [cooperates rather than opposes]

3. Synergist - together as an in-between joint when a prim. mover passes more than one joint.

4. Fixator/Postural Muscle - provides a stable base of action for the prim. mover. Usually steadies the proximal end (ie arm) while actual movement is occuring at the distant end (ie hand).

According to the 3 'general' overall jing definitions -
Hard Jing - Visible as tensded muscles

Soft-Hard Jing - Like a Whip , great deal of
force in short span of time, done with the elasticity and counter supporting motion of the tendons, instigated by muscle pulses.

Soft Jing - Less visible less muscle tension very fluid and flowing supported by Qi at the more adv.level.

According to the Chinese view:

'LI' Muscles strength/power is derived from bones and muscles.
'JING' arises vire tendons, supported by Qi and propagated by pulse like muscle interaction between changes,

Thus as tendons are emphasized muscle fibres can be relatively relaxed thus Qi is more flowing ..more so at the advanced viewpoint. Utilising the tendons as such it is easier to become flexible and more elusive.

To Compare LI-Muscle Pwr & Jing-Pwr.

-Li stagnant, Jing is fluid
-Li is dull, Jing is sharp
-Li is Rigid (Sluggish/Stiff), Jing is concaved(Smooth/agile/alive)
-Li has shape (Can be seen), Jing no shape(needs to be felt)
-Li is Diffuse(spread), jing is concentrated

The more the muscles relax the more Qi can be used, allowing tendon elasticity and propagation to takeover the manifesting control of the motion keeping it flowing in a pulse like fashion.

Root are the legs, Waist is the director, Back is the emitting support of force.

Methods of manifesting Jing rather than Muscle power are by observing some of the following points :
- Spirit makes action alive
- Balanced (action & reaction counter balanced)
- Relaxed Body
- Whole body as one
- Like a Pulse
- Accumulate before generating ( like a bow & arrow...coil body, hollow the chest, arching the back, compressing and coiling like a spring)
- Make the generating effort as above unseen
- speed in action, that usually does not exhaust rather the momentum of one jing action to another makes it even faster.
- Supported by Qi.

Til Later
Shi Chan Long

[Shaolin Master]

Jik - Straight & Direct, pinpoint and threw without hesitation of inbetweens. Forward surging

Chum - Heavy but maliable

Sing - Flowing but connected, transformable but rising without losing source

Gang - Sudden without motion, from all directions without aim for a direction, direct but non pinpointing, everywhere but from only one source. Like a canon.

Regards
Shi chan Long

[cricri]

I would like to thank everyone for your very valuable information. It is very instructive.

What I now understand is that TTFC is a combination of body motion and breathing in order to create and direct a ging. There are several kind of ging.

Regarding the influence of tendons in ging, you explained mechanics of power generation . You mentionned the concept of action/reaction phenomenum, the concept of the eight area force and the 3 border force, the importance of the breathing, the need to have relaxed muscle, the importance of the ribs work (?)...

Most of these concept is related to a biomechanical concept. There is no link with a physical ability of any kind.

Meltdawn and Fierce Tiger talk about a muscle work out and a stretching work. And Fierce Tiger said that form work cannot allow us to have a good ging. So hight level forms have no meaning.And does it mean that Pak Mei kung fu is not in the forms but in specific exercices?

Now let's assume that I know how to generate a ging. With all these concept I do not see how to have a better ging. So how would I be able to improve my ging? In every single technic ofa sport there is a technic part and a physical ability part. So how can I increase the physical ability for a ging? in stretching?

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Nota : Mantis, I would like to thank you for your kindness and friendship for me. I do appreciate it.

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Cricri,
Some thought:
1. Find a teacher who understand these concepts and willing to teach you
2. Daily practice to acquire the "body knowledge"/make it second nature to you
3. Further finetune your Ging
4. Refinement comes under consistent practice and good guidance under knowledgeable teacher
5. More advance methods to produce more forceful Ging
6. Correct practice of weaponry at a more advance level also helps.

Of course this is my own opinion.

Integraman

[fiercest tiger]

IMHO i teach form and 2 man exercises that develop the muscles of the legs,waist, ribs,arms and back.
you can also have training devices that are used to direct chi to the correct muscles that are developed for certain punches etc.

you can get ging forms, but like shaolin master said, ging is more felt than expressed which is correct.

high level pak mei is done with soft ging fast. does that make sense???

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com