"Tun To Fau Chum" and tendon

[meltdawn]

This is waaaay toooooo much to assimilate in one sitting. especially on a Sunday night after a full day of work.

Mantis, I see that you answered my questions before I spoke them. Guess I should pay attention to what I read! And my western thinking only gets more in they way... sigh...

I want to reply more, but time (and brain power) permits only one thing: I've been reading muscle/tendon changing, marrow/brain washing stuff again. Internal and external are inseperable. While I continue to seek a physical meaning for the answers, I must remember how much my qigong has helped. And I CAN'T physically explain that.

"I was Ghengis Khan... no, not my screen name... I WAS Ghengis Khan."

[cricri]

Hi integraman,

I do agree with you on your thoughts. But I did not want to know how to learn to have a ging.

The purpose of my question was to know, according your opinion, the type of exercice in order to improve your ging. It is like in a lot of sport. Some hight level athlet know how to do their technics (they assililate the technic, they understand all the biomechanich of their technics). But they do some bodybuilder exercice in order to improve their technic. And the exercice motion might be not related to the technics.

For instance fierce tiger said that he is doing some man exercice for developping muscle. So he might think that ging take his source in muscle. Some said that ging is coming from the action/reaction principle of muscle. So I just wanted to know what kind of exercice they are doing to develop that characteristic of the muscle.

That kind of question can also give the different ways to approach Pak Mei style.

It is only my point of view. cheers
[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

[kull]

Mantis108- thanks for compliment but i not scientist, just have BS, lol, working on MS.

Crici-
When some ppl. decribe ging as develope in tendon some say muscle, actiually it is both is correct, depending on point of view taken. In Traditonal chinese physiology, we never differentiate tendon from muscle, the "jin" was responsible for movement and disorders that involve jin have impaired movement of limbs. It is only when modern bioscience was intro did we incorporate tendon as connective tisse, and muscles as movement. So when u ask what exercise develop ging, remain loose and relax never use ur muscle, use ur internal energy liu ging (6 external), 4 nei ging (4internal) this is traditional pt. of view. Develop power=force x speed of muscle contraction, this is modern physiology.
hope this help.

[kull]

oops sorry
power= strength x speed of muscle contraction

[mantis108]

Hi All,

It is wonderful to see the amount of input that is on this thread. Hope we can have more of these kind of discussion. I really have to thank everyone's support and kind words. This has been an encourage experience. Thank you all. CriCri thanks for a wonderful thread.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[cricri]

thank you for your answer.

So when you said that to develop ging I have to remain loose and relax that I never have to use my muscle, and that I have to use my internal energy It remind me the way how the tai chi chuan ppl are working. So working quick is a non sense at a certain level. right or wrong?

[img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

nota : what means "lol"?

[Ross]

"power= strength x speed of muscle contraction"

This formula doesn't really explain things for me at all.

Power (watts) is the rate at which work is done so

Power= force x velocity.

Know this sounds picky but there isn't really a recognised method for measuring strength that two people can agree on. I wouldn't equate strength with force as there are many types/definitions of strength...

Can someone clarify further or send me an e-mail to keep this from clogging the thread?

Thanks, R

crm3a@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

the Kull equation a bit simplistic and truely it cannot be defined as such.

One would more appropriate to state it as a function.

Eg.

Power = f(mass, muscle contraction, bone density, tendon elasticity, Qi flow, Joint cushioning, muscle strength, direction, air resistance, reaction force handling, conditionin......and a million other things)

Each one of those then are a function of something else.
Eg Muscle Contractions = F(whatever cells, chemicals etc....)
Qi flow - F( diet, yuen Qi, Jing, Shen, Time, Month, year etc.....)

However these are never definitive.....nor correct as such nothing is. They are just methods of explaining at differing levels of comprhension.

The truth of the matter is that attempting to explain concepts scientifically is nice and interesting but only through thorough practice will correct powers and energies arise. Even if you new this goes with that in a million scientific philosophical ways.......the one who does that practice correctly will achieve their aim.

Cricri,
TaiQi - From Internal to External
BaiMei - From External to Internal
But balance in end in both....
So different but same....hehehe.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

[fiercest tiger]

GOOD TIMING AND SPEED= POWER

STRENGTH WILL COME WITH PRACTISE BUT TIMING, SPEED, AND GOOD BODY MACHENICS ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

just practise and develop each strike with power(ging), dont worry if it is springy etc, your sifu will show you how to punch correctly!! i hope.... [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[kull]

R-
Yes ur right that there r many definitions of strength- speed strength, endurance strength,...etc. Bodybuilders, powerlifters, boxers, all exhibit diff. combinations and manifestations of strentgh, speed, endurance.

ShaolinMast.- Thank u, yes that formula isn't quite true, and it is quite simple. ur right power is a FUNCTION of factors, speed and strength, all things being equal. It is not a multiple.

Fierce Tig.- yes ur right too, timing is very important, especially in activity like martial art, and strength will come with practise, this is what they call neural adaptation to training. But crici was asking about ging, and how to develop.

Crici- what do u mean that working quick is a non-sense? LOL=laugh out loud/lots of laugh, chat room expression. Again when they say don't use muscle but internal energy, u have to remember they r describing a phenomena through chinese physiology, not contemporary physiology.

[meltdawn]

Ahhhh, back when we were all friends...

Oh yeah, we still are. Just that this one happened to be troll-less.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[Buby]

I wonder how it got up there?

Buby

[tnwingtsun]

This topic and posts are like a breath of fresh air.
Question,Does the shock force emit(or can it)
pulse in a 360 degree arc or is it limited
to one azmith?
The reason I ask this is that I've seen what appered to be this gang or shock force
gernerated in all directions at once.

[CannonFist]

This shock force can emit in multiple directions due to the dip gwut (rib cage fold) and tun, tou, fao, chum mechanics as opposed to merely generating power via turning the waist.

I think the dip gwut and tun, tou, fao, chum is an important link in power generation.

The other vital link of power generation is the "elbow force" which is the specialty of Wing Chun.

[meltdawn]

tnwingtsun:
Would you further elaborate upon your experience? I would assume you don’t mean "seen" literally.

I think this would fall outside the realm of TTFC. Even yuen, circle, still contacts at one point (is this what you mean by azimuth?). These principals in application necessitate the use of physics and body mechanics to focus power, not disperse it. We can debate the effect of the contact, whether it be stopping or penetrating, but it is still a single contact. No matter the energy behind it, one still needs to aim.

On the next level, the four internal powers, I would suppose gang ging might describe the experience you witnessed. One who has achieved gang has full control of all external and internal powers, thus can manifest them on any plane, no limitations. I think all of us must purely speculate whether or not it can be manifested on ALL planes (versus multiple) concurrently, as you ask. How would you experience an arc? A tornado, perhaps. But the human body has form and constitution. I would think one must have other than martial kung fu to exhibit this ging.

Someone else MUST have another opinion…

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi