John Painter

[tnglng]

Anybody that has been around martial arts long enough will run into all kinds of people. When you have nothing to compare against, it is easy to be fooled. Martial arts always has a lot of con men who know how to turn a fast buck. Cheaters and the cheated. When I first posted this, I was reacting to an IKF article that appeared overly theatrical and self-serving. I wanted some other opinions, and I sure got them!

I didn't like Mr. Painter's replies, implying this "aw c'mon guys, we all stretch the truth...." and all the rest of removing the questionable pictures, etc. The argument about walking the circle before most of us were born is also not very strong. I've seen people doing tai ji for decades, frankly they are not very good. The man may have some skill, but I would never spend my hard earned money to learn from him. I used to spend time at the Tai Ji Farm and I saw Painter there a few times, but I won't say anything about that. Maybe these discussions will make him think about his methods and change a little. I don't know and don't care.

[CD Lee]

Pardon my intense language. Let me try this again. Look back at my post and look at my quote. So there was no missunderstanding, and converging of topics, I only quoted your very first sentence of your previous post. I will post it again, as you asked me to show you where you said he couldn't fight: Once again...

I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who had fighting
skills and taught them.

---Very first sentence of your post. You are supposed to make your point, then back it up right?

That is all I meant about your intellect on the matter. You stated in your first sentence that he had no fighting skills, and did not teach any.

I take it your statement was flippant, as the rest of the content of your post contradicted your first statement.

And my counterpoint was that if you had not met the man, then based on credible first hand witness accounts that abound about Shifu Painter, you could determine that the one thing he can do is fight well and teaches the system well.

Have I misunderstood you?

[Justa Man]

Does your lineage matter if you have skill?
I get mixed responses to this based on everyone's posts. Some say it doesn't matter who you learned from if you have skill, but then diss someone who can't legitimately trace his lineage to Dung, Hai Chuan. Some say it does matter and I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm just wondering. I for one don't think it matters if you can't trace your lineage back to him if you teach a ba gua program that imparts fighting skill and good health to those who practice.
Maoshan said something interesting about how back then, "Old is better" and that may have been why Dung, Hai Chuan avoided the questions of where he learned his Ba Gua from. That sounds like a good point, but if that is in any way or measure true, then isn't Painter doing the same thing with the doctored photos? He's showing photos of him with his teacher, linking him to the "old".

[Sum Guye]

CD Lee,

Yes, you did misunderstand... I'll restate myself more clearly now:

I have oodles of respect for anyone who simply opens a school and teaches fighting skills.... I do not respect someone who invents a fake background and lineage period.
(you quoted my first sentence but ignored the rest of my post)

If Painter created his own martial art and named it "Painter's art"
and taught whatever he teaches, that would be admirable.
Instead, Painter created a false history, invented an anceint secret Chinese martial art and that, I find dishonorable.

For my part in this thread, I haven't questioned whether or not he can fight (again, if you can show me where I did- I'll apologize
and will visit Painter at the Hall of Champions in LA, and will have my girlfriend give biff the best blowjob he's ever had, to make up for it) all I've said is that he made up his history... falsified pictures to make himself look legit which he is not.

Nothing to do with whether or not he can fight, hit hard or shoot chi and explode chickens at 50 paces. I haven't sparred the guy, I don't know or care if he can 'fight'.... I just think it's FUNNY that he's bullsh*tting so many people about his history... and even FUNNIER that those pictures where so badly doctored.

My only take on the whole painter thing is that HE'S LYING ABOUT HIS LINEAGE AND POSTED LAUGHABLY BAD, DOCTORED PHOTOS OF SOME GUYS HEAD PASTED ONTO PHOTOS OF PAINTERS OWN BODY.

Do you understand yet?

(Justaman, my take, no lineage does NOT matter- but if you LIE about a lineage and invent some BS, that DOES matter- it makes you look stupid. If I studied TaiJi from a little old white lady in Kalamazoo, but learned well and became the greatest taiji fighter around.... that lack of lineage would be cool..... but, if I opened a school and invented a huge false background saying I'd been taught by warrior monks who didn't want to teach their own children and taught me because only I could save the art.. that would be UNCOOL.... just my opinion. whether I could fight or not- inventing a BS history is BULLSH*T RIPOFF CRAP.)

[CD Lee]

This is getting funny.

For my part in this thread, I haven't questioned whether or not he can fight (again, if you
can show me where I did- I'll apologize

Ok, here is your FIRST SENTENCE of your post...

I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who
had fighting skills and taught them.

You did make this statement. You also made other statements about his photos. I called you on your first statement that he had no fighting skills.

Changing the subject is not working. You said he had no fighting skills, and you wanted me to show you. I don't think you meant it, I just think you were slinging insults because your ****ed at his photos an his response. I just called you down on your statement about his fighting skills.

Was I correct in quoting you? Did you make that statement?

I will drop your statement for now, as you already have retracted in some measure anyway. I just want an admission, not even an apology.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Interesting the number of opinions and rational behind them.
I think many could make the same case about a certain TC teacher.


What are the criteria for one to be an IMA teacher of a particular style?

I seem to be confused by all this.

Sometimes it seems that linage and style is/or is not it
Other times it seems to be measured by fighting ability
And still at other times it seems to be measured in what are called internal skills.

depending on ones views it seems that any one of these can cancle out the others and invaldate the claim of teaching something that is called IMA.

So what do most view as the criteria for one to be able to say that they teach or are leaning what is called IMA?

[Shin]

CD you are fixating and it reveals a certain level of insecurity. Even a child can read the post and realize that the implication is not that Painter can't fight. The implication is if Painter made no claims about his abilities/style other than fighting, rather than attempting to give himself airs, the author would have no issues.

[Internal Boxer]

Hmmm

After reading all these posts I have come to realise that the skills of Mr Painter are not in question (I have never heard of the guy prior to this post), but given the exposure he has in the states it is likely that he has ability or else lack of skills would have shown up sooner or later.

However on the question of lineage, he may be telling the truth, and felt compelled to fabricate the pictures, that is by no means an excuse for what he has done, but I would have respect for the man if he admitted that the photos were changed.

Putting that aside I wish people would just get on and do their own training rather than be bothered about what the next guy is doing. But then I do undertand others concerns regarding false information being spread, so it would be nice if Mr painter apologised for the photos then everyone could get on with training!!

There comes a time in life when you realise that in the greater scheme of the universe nothing really matters. Do you think the internal arts will survive forever? I do not think so as the human race seems hell bent on destroying itself all that matters is the Tao.

Blo.ody He.ll this meditation is making me go MAD

[Sum Guye]

"I would have respect for John Painter if he was some guy who had fighting skills and taught them. What gets me is the fact that he studied a little bagua and then invented a rediculous history for it and claims he's teaching a type of bagua that never existed."

I don't want to bore everyone by explaining this to you, but since you seem stuck on this misunderstanding I'll try once more:
The second sentence has direct bearing on how the first sentence was intended.

I do see how by reading ONLY that first sentence someone might misunderstand what I was explaining in the entire paragraph.

(first paragraph explained: if Painter said 'look world, I know how to fight- here learn this' - I'd admire that. INSTEAD what painter did/does is 'look world, i know how to fight because of this INVENTED FAKE BACKGROUND.. look at these altered pictures of my teacher and me... I learned how to fight using a secret ancient art taught only to me')

NOWHERE IN ANY OF MY POSTS HAVE I QUESTIONED WHETHER OR NOT HE CAN FIGHT (i even went so far as to say he can probably kick my ass) I was saying A- I would have respect for him is he was honest about his skills B- I do not have respect for his because he is dishonest about how he came about his skills.

again:
I would have respect for him is he was just some guy who knows how to fight and teaches people---- I do not have respect for ANYONE who invents an entire history for themselves and profits from it. That's all I was saying. I can see how someone only reading the line you quoted could misunderstand my point... my point NOW is the quote was taken out of context. Read with the entire paragraph it should be clear that WHAT I TAKE ISSUE WITH IS THE FACT THAT HIS HISTORY IS BULLSH*T HYPE FAKE CRAP AND THOSE PICTURES (WHICH HE HAD REMOVED FROM THE SITE STRENGTHEN MY POINT).

no appology... no admission from me.
(and no super blow job for Painter either since again, you've failed to prove what you're so freaked out over).

[CD Lee]

Shin:

Ok, ok, I am fixating. I admit that. However, I am not insecure, but I am educated, and like a well stated post that makes a point, then backs up the statement. I give. Unlce, uncle.

However, how many of you have had the chance to see your Shifu trashed in a huge thread? There is some emotion involved. I respect my teacher and his system and I will naturally defend him if I see a statement that I don't think shows the true picture, no pun intended.

At least I, as a Painter student, have not been asked to pay good money, above and beyond the norm for other schools in our area, for some fancy lineage. That is my experience firsthand. That is the reality of what I have experienced.

We have all seen here the scary stories of some self appointed so-called Masters, that charge huge amounts of money to join, to advance, and to stay in the schools. That is true fraudulence. One should be able to pay a fair market price, and receive an excellent product in return (value) for thier hard earned money.

[CD Lee]

Sum Guye

I read your post as you explained it fine the first time. I don't need an apology, as you inferred you would give one if you really made the statement with intent. Fair enough.

Just wanted a clarification from you, and you provided that.

Besides, I don't want to fixate too much.

(Hey, we really got off to a great relationship Sum Guye eh??? )

[Sum Guye]

Thank you. I have much respect for you.
I'm glad we cleared that up.

[John Painter]

Dear Water Dragon & Internal Boxer

Thank your for your direct comments. I will try to do just that in the future.

I will also direct you and other reading this to revisit my earlier post as I have edited it to hopefully remove any offending comments and yet still state my case and answer your questions.
I am sure even this will generate some controversy.

As far as the internal arts being a laughing stock when it comes to martial artists. That is a shame because there are some very well trained and skillful fighters out there. My kung fu pal Johnny Kwong Ming Lee, master Wai-Lun Choi, Kumar Frantzis, Jason Tso and some others including from what I hear from my friend Master B.P. Chan and others one of your senior members here on this club, Mr. Bell who is also gaining a reputation as a great Baguazhang exponent and fighter.

It is a shame that these people are not afforded and opportunity to do more to present their methods of Baguazhang to the public eye through the magazines and in other venues. I have offered to help some of them break into the magazines and get more notice for the good of the entire art of Baguazhang and still stand ready to do so.

Some have said that for me it is all about money. Well, yes anyone wants to make a living and support their family. However, I have never failed to promote any Baguazhang teacher's workshops or efforts and still do regularly by sending out announcements on programs by other teachers to our newsletter and mailing lists.

Those of us who teach combative methods must be willing to help show that we are not just about new age dancing. In Los Angeles our instructor there teaches Jiulong Baguazhang in a hard core combat gym with kick boxers and full contact fighters. "The house of Champions"

Most of them turned their noses up or laughed up their sleeves at the idea of having Baguazhang or any internal methods in the same room with them. After Mr. Adams our teacher there started his classes and they saw the methods some of them changed their minds and now some of their teachers are taking classes in Baguazhang. I hope other Baguazhang teachers will repeat this in the future with their arts in their hometowns.

On The Controversy over my web site
If it pleases you to hate me dislike or discredit because of photos or printed words and that makes me an evil person that this is your choice. I have about the history of what I teach told the truth as far as I know it. That will stand. I got some bad advice and if photos I published offended some of you again I apologize. They have been removed.

I think Internal Boxers post on 02-01-2002 has a great deal of validity and should ring true with some of you. Although I know some of you in your heart will not be happy until I bow to your wishes and admit it is all a fake and that it is all made up by me.

I even thought about doing just that even though it is not true just to make peace. However, I have to honor my own heart and what I know to be true and honest and abolish the things which are not and then take my chances. This is what I have done.

I will say that in the future I will place less emphasis on our history and more on the art itself if that appeases some. We do not have any students to my knowledge that came to me or purchased my videos or books because of my lineage or reputed lack of one. They saw the method they liked it and so they joined. It was and is as simple as that.

As a teacher I really do not seem to attract people who are more interested in history than present results gained. Not that you cannot have both it just does not seem to matter to the majority.

I sincerely hope this gesture will appease the hearts burning with too much fire Qi for my demise out there. So you can count this as my official apology to anyone who is or was offended by bad judgment in allowing the placing any offending materials on my website.

Please do train and practice more, perfect your arts, share them with others and do not concern yourself so much with sowing the seeds of discord or what is going on in your neighbor's house.

I hope we can meet in the spirit of friendship as Baguazhang cousins at some time in the future.

John Painter

[Water Dragon]

Thank you for the reply Mr. Painter. Like I said, I'm not asking you to act on my opinion, only hear it. You did, and for that I am grateful.

I'm not a Bagua man, and know relatively little of the art. But I know I would enjoy having an advanced pratitioner on the boards. Perhaps you will consider it?

Have you ever considered attempting to popularize the arts through a tournament setting? Perhaps with your friend Mr. Patterson. IMO, that would be the best thing that could be done for our arts. And look what it did for the Gracies, excellant way to make a good living by keeping the art pure. I'm working on it myself, but on a more limited basis of course.

If not, maybe a book set focusing on the true skills of Bagua. You know, the simple boring stuff that no one wants to practice. Now that is a book I would like to see written.

[redfist]

he took the pictures down because they are frauds.
he got caught.