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straightblast5,
I couldn't agree with you more. I am a bak hsing CLF practitioner and we are 90% hands. But saying that, we do not neglect kicks. For us a kick is merely another step, sometimes as you step into your attack, a kick is warranted.
The added power having both feet planted when you are engaged and driving forward almost always negates your opponent's kick- pure dynamics of motion.
And your comment about how most adopt the 'kick-boxing' stance is wide-spread throughout the eastern martial arts. In my opinion it reveals poor training from poor understanding and faith in one's chosen style.
Martial artists have gotten very sloppy. Go to an Open tournament and you'll be hardpressed in decerning one style from any other.
In closing, I also believe too many martial artists do not know how to develop proper power in their kicks, except for when they are attacking a heavy bag. Once again, improper training and lack of knowledge in total body mechanics.
I'm not dissing those of you who train or believe in kicks as the end-all to be-all, nor am I disagreeing their effectiveness for a person who knows how and when to use kicks. I spent many years developing my kicking technique and strategy. It's part of becoming a well rounded martial artist. Nonetheless, give me 3 months to train someone and they will focus soley on stance/hip/arm movement. Period.
nospam.
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It's often said that CLF suits a lot of people with different body types. Some people have naturally strong and flexible legs and I think in that case they should use their legs when ever possible.
The general idea in fighting is to strike to the open areas, right? and if there's no open areas, you create one. If the target is kickable and your position is right to do it, then you should kick it.
premier
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JosephX & Straightblast5,
U both r correct & have good points. I havnt been training long but from what ive trained & seen. The kicks r usualy used to bridge the gap or break thru ur opponents defence to create a openning. CLF has a lot of unbeleivable flowing non stop combos punches, kicks, elbows & knees all mixed. Their also got really good footwork, i have heard few lineage of clf dont have ng lun ma(5 wheel horse) no offence but i think this is a real shame. I think this set should be a must 4 every clf beginner its a great set to build strong, mobil stances & fast footwork, changing from stance 2 stance. Also theres another set 4 footwork, attack & defence its learned by the 1st yr of intermediate(so by about 2 yrs) its called Sze Mourn Kiu Jo Sarng Ma. (4 doors bridging running the live horse) Sifu Lane Louie has written a article on his website www.clfma.com. I will b learning this in a few months hopefully. We do have all sorts of kicks high, low, sweeps,jump & flying but havnt seen many in forms even the single legged set sifu Chan taught in china. I seen it practiced at our kwoon, some kicks but mainly hand techs.(cool fighting set) Have any of u more advanced guys seen a form concentrated on kicks? I have read in Doc Fais book at the back its got all the forms & theres a set called "Continious Dual Kicking Form"(Yin Yeung Teui Lin Wan)
Anyway everyone has there own techs. they prefer. I am about 5 foot 8, 95kg & still growing so i like to keep kicks low 4 sweeping & breaking so i keep my balance. I rather mostly use my legs with footwork, low kicks but the occasional mid push kick to hit or bridge & break thru like i said b4 & mid roundehouse to break some ribs. But i guess some high kicks r alright when ur got ur enemy dazed or off balance.(like the front push kick with toes or ball of the foot 2 the throat or under the chin) Sifu Lane has got me with those.(ouch) But as i said i rather use quick changing footwork & go in hard with my weight behind my hands, low breaking kicks & destroy anything in my path.(always on my toes)
Peace 2 all CLF bros. & sisters,
Golden Armor
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What are some of the fancier kicks like?
Just curious
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I guess the 360 degrees spinning jumping inside crescent kick is the most common "fancy kick".
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Nospam,
It's good to hear that you share my views!
Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association
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nospam
i believe you 'd say something very true and very commom in kung fu and that can star another topic :
people don't believe in his style
is very common see people adopting kickboxing stances and kicks in combat . for what reason ?
fear of lost the fight ? no faith in his style ?
maybe today people have too much information and lost the goal of his style . maybe is most comfortable make high kicks all time . i don't no .
i got a interview of tat mau wong telling when he was young and was fighting in hong kong . he 'd say in the article :
" back in hong kong , everybody really uses their styles . not like here when everybody uses a boxing technique . in hong kong . you fight a hung gar guy , you know the hung speciallity or southern praying mantis , there arte some good fightings in this style . they are strong and their really used their style . or some white crane stylist , they are wide open . which doens't mean anithing because they get in and one strong punch will really knock you out . wing chun people uses a lot of elbows "
what you think ? you believe that today the most fighters really use their styles ?
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"I spent many years developing my kicking technique and strategy. It's part of becoming a well rounded martial artist. Nonetheless, give me 3 months to train someone and they will focus soley on stance/hip/arm movement. Period.”
Once again, Nospam hit the nail on the head. It is easier for beginners to work on the hand techniques before they can build up a solid foundation for further study. After that, we need to work on the kicking techniques (and other things) to become a well-rounded martial artist.
To the uninitiated, CLF looked as though we have a lot of hand techniques unique to the style, like gwa, sow, charp etc. and they think that is the style. They don’t realize CLF also has an arsenal of kicking and ground fighting techniques. Because they are inexperienced, they think we cannot do a lot of kicks and be stable at the same time, we cannot possibly hit and kick effectively together, we have to stay on two feet all the time to be safe and once we are down we are finished.
While this is true for the beginners, for a well-rounded and experienced CLF practitioner, mobility and stability can work magic together, kicking and hand techniques can roll together as natural as moving from point A to point B and we can still have a chance when we are down on the ground. It is just we don’t see these kinds of display much nowadays, so they think it is neither possible nor desirable in CLF.
Like fast food, they are concerned only with what comes fast and easy. They want to stay on their two legs and fight with their hands because it is easier and quicker to get some results. Training someone to fight in a tournament in 3 months is very different to training to become a martial artist for life. By de-emphasizing the importance of kicking for the beginners, we run the risk of giving a wrong impression of the true nature of our art.
By downplaying the usefulness of kicking, we run the risk of producing one-dimensional martial artists.
Last edited by extrajoseph; 02-02-2002 at 12:35 AM.
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In the years that I’ve spent studying and teaching martial arts, I’ve always noticed that both beginners and the naive tend to kick and punch wildly to make up for their poor structure and body mechanics. It's only after practicing and understanding Choy Lay Fut's body mechanics and general fighting strategy (dynamic positioning) that they begin to realize the value of solid hand techniques supported by stable and mobile footwork.
That is why (as both Nospam and I have noticed), most beginner and inexperienced CLF practitioners take on a "pseudo-kickboxing" stance and execute a fighting strategy hardly similar to what is taught in the CLF curriculum (at least not the curriculum that I was taught and use). That's what I was referring to when I mentioned over-emphasizing kicks and sacrificing structure. This does NOT mean kicks are unimportant and cannot be seamlessly incorporated into our offensive strategy. It also does NOT mean that I cannot do a lot of kicks, it’s just not necessary to do so.
As I've stated before, it all just boils down to kick when it's appropriate and don’t kick when it's not appropriate. It just so happens that Choy Lay Fut focuses more on "hand" techniques than kicking, because the "feet" are often involved in the more important task of keeping you standing, stable, and mobile. There’s nothing “high-level” about this concept, just simple common sense.
Lots of beginners look to well roundedness to mean being an expert at every game and range, while neglecting the principles and concepts of their own chosen method. I have a pretty good knowledge of leverage (and stand up grappling) from CLF, but I would be lying if I said my ground-fighting arsenal was adequate enough (from CLF alone) to successful play the ground game and submit an experienced ground fighter. However, I never willingly fight by anyone else’s preferred strategy.
In a fight against anyone of any method, I will fight to maintain my own preferred offensive. If I do get taken down, I would utilize what I do know of leverage or any other concept in CLF applicable to get me back on my feet to fight again. If someone kicks me, I’ll use my stance and positioning to nullify their kicks, break their posture, and open them up to my own strikes (be it kicking or punching, depending on the situation).
To me, being well rounded means having applicable knowledge and understanding of different approaches and being able to deal with these approaches using my chosen method’s core principles and strategies. I really don’t believe that simply “knowing” how to punch, kick, and grapple necessarily equals being well rounded.
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association
Last edited by straightblast5; 02-02-2002 at 03:07 AM.
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an interesting thread going in good directions.
regarding novice playing CLF, and how they adapt to a " kick-boxing " situation, this also happens if every art, a trend of the times maybe? in the 60' and 70' especially in western society, the fall back was to present like a boxer, now they present like a kick-boxer, is this because they understand a kickboxing pose, but not a CLF POSTURE is it foriegn to them until they understand the art and skill ???
i have to say though it is not just in western society i have seen some pretty average fighting even many years in asian society, it comes down to understand of skill, and not falling back on primitive intent.
i have always believed you kick when you have to and punch when you need to, the hands and feet follow each other not only in step but in placement, so when an oppertunity arises the smarter player uses the skill best suited.
to my understanding ( some would say none hahaha ) both leg and hand must look/feel/connect/direct/control/stike/rebound with the same principles and in CLF the ging is tui and bin.
like the old cannon says " if you control your opponent with one hand you have the other free, to stand on two legs is practicle to only stand on one takes courage "
hope you don't mind my 2 cents worth
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In the years that I’ve spent studying and teaching martial arts, I’ve always noticed that both beginners and the naive tend to kick and punch wildly to make up for their poor structure and body mechanics. It's only after practicing and understanding Choy Lay Fut's body mechanics and general fighting strategy (dynamic positioning) that they begin to realize the value of solid hand techniques supported by stable and mobile footwork.
A: It is also only after practising and understanding CLF body mechanics and general fighting strategy that the beginners will begin to realize the value of solid and well placed kicks supported by stable and mobile footwork. So it takes time to be good at what you want to achieve. I am sure all your students know that.
That is why (as both Nospam and I had said), most beginner and inexperienced CLF practitioners take on a "pseudo-kickboxing" stance and execute a fighting strategy hardly similar to what is taught in the CLF curriculum (at least not the curriculum that I was taught and use). That's what I was referring to when I mentioned over-emphasizing kicks and sacrificing structure. This does NOT mean kicks are unimportant and cannot be seamlessly incorporated into our offensive strategy. It’s not that I cannot do a lot of kicks, it’s just that it’s not necessary to.
A: Instead of de-emphasing the importance of kicks why not work more on solid stance coupled with simple basic kicks to encourage the students to do better and at the same time improving their hand techniques. That would give them more confidence to work with their whole body instead of part of them at a time. Soon or later they will know the pain of a fancy or a sloppy kick when done untimely. As you know, we start kicking right from Ng Lun Ma and Ng Lun Chui and we do them from low stance, that is the basic teaching strategy built into the primary forms. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know we should not over-emphasizing kicks and sacrifice structure, saying it in colour ink would not make any difference to your common sense message. I can say the flip side, "we should not over-emphasizing hitting with the hands and sacrificing structure" (in colour if I know how to do it) to you and make you feel like you know nothing. Playing down the role of kicking early and working mostly with the hands will only give your beginner students a false sense of security. If you know how to do a lot of kicks well, then it is even more important that you should show them how to do them properly early. They know it will take time and they will kick wildly and look like a "psudo-kickboxer" at the beginning but that should not stop them from trying and you from teaching.
As I've stated before, it all just boils down to kick when it's appropriate and don’t kick when it's not appropriate. It just so happens that Choy Lay Fut focuses more on "hand" techniques than kicking, because the "feet" are often involved in the more important task of keeping you standing, stable, and mobile. There’s nothing “high-level” about this concept, just simple common sense.
A: Simple common sense also tells us to hit with our hands when it's appopriate and don't hit when it is not approprate. Do we have to say, "we should not over- emphasizing the importance of the hands" to get the message across? CLF like other TCMA, focuses more on hand techniques for the beginners then move onto other parts of the body when the students want to increase their level of skills. That is where the more advanced teaching comes in and that is what I mean by "higer level". My point is: you don't have to play down kicking at the beginning. If you talk down any part of the body in the beginning, then you will give the student an impression that you do not think highly of that part of the body. If you want them to learn the kicks later, say so. Tell them that we should not over- emphasizing the importance of kicking will give them an impression that it is not so important after all, and that is not true as you said so yourself.
Lots of beginners look to well roundedness to mean being an expert at every game and range, while neglecting the principles and concepts of their own chosen method. I have a pretty good knowledge of leverage (and stand up grappling) from CLF, but I would be lying if I said my ground-fighting arsenal was adequate enough (from CLF alone) to successful play the ground game and submit an experienced ground fighter. However, I never willingly fight by anyone else’s preferred strategy.
A: Through out this debate, I know it is not true but I cannot help but to feel you have a low opinion of beginner students. You may be surprised to know that they would have enough common sense to know that well roundedness does not mean being an expert at every game and range (nor do they want to be such an expert), and that a teacher does not have to be an expert at ground fighting before he can teach them how to play the ground game. They also know it will take time to be good at their chosen method and that you are just a human being like them even though you are their teacher. There is no need to tell them (and us) the bloody obvious in techno colour prints!
In a fight against anyone of any method, I will fight to maintain my own preferred offensive. If I do get taken down, I would utilize what I do know of leverage or any other concept in CLF applicable to get me back on my feet to fight again. If someone kicks me, I’ll use my stance and positioning to nullify their kicks, break their posture, and open them up to my own strikes (be it kicking or punching, depending on the situation).
A: That is wonderful, bravo to you! I just fight to survive any which way I can.
To me, being well rounded means having applicable knowledge and understanding of different approaches and being able to deal with these approaches using our chosen method’s core principles and strategies. It doesn’t mean simply “knowing” how to punch, kick, and grapple.
A: Then teach your students these wonderful core principles and strategies. I am just happy enough to know how to punch, kick and grapple well. That is enough for me (including this debate)!
JosephX
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no need to get upset
Joseph X
No need in getting upset. If you look back at the beginning of this discussion, you will see that I had merely stated a point, to which you then disagreed with, and I did my best through words to defend my position. I wasn't trying to convert you to my way of doing things, as I don't think you were trying to convert me. I was merely trying to state my ideas and opinions clearly while emphasizing my main points. On this medium of the internet forum, bold and colored text were some of the ways which I thought were appropriate to emphasize my points. If the bold type and coloring offended you, I apologize.
Like I said in my first or second response to you in this thread, I'm glad you believe in what you do and I'm glad it works for you.
By the way, I do not think lowly of beginners or anybody else, I just feel there are those who are naïve and misinformed. I apologize if I came off as insulting to beginners.
Try to relax, you might be right and I might be wrong on this point, but you’re not really proving your point any by being all upset. Besides, is being right or wrong really the issue here? I thought we were all here just to share ideas and to occasionally challenge each other’s theories to maybe come up with a better one.
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martail Arts Association
Last edited by straightblast5; 02-02-2002 at 05:30 AM.
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Beancurd,
One of the reasons why there are so many average fights is because some teachers for commercial reasons get their students to fight in tournaments too early. Instead of training them in the basic skills for a number of years to produce a solid foundation of footwork, kicks and punches, they talked about fighting strategies and core principles and get the students to produce quick results by concentrating on one aspect of the art. The result is a three-months specialist with a half dozen of boxing or kick boxing techniques whose aim is to stay upright at all cost to last the rounds. At least they will have a chance to win on points and bring home the trophies.
They have these progressive learning programs where the students can get through a level every 2-3 months and a colour sash every 9-12 months to give them a false sense of progress. It is how they look and how they talk that counts and anything that is too difficult and takes time to perfect they will de-emphasis or avoid. They took on the trappings of the most popular martial arts and dress their progressive curriculum in the traditional names. They have wonderful websites and present themselves as good looking and highly qualified professional trainers. It is the case of selling the same chocolate wrappers with nothing resembling chocolates in them.
I agree with you, this not only happening in the west, but it happens in China (you should check out the latest Shaolin Temple schools) and other parts of SE Asia as well. Sadly, no ones wants to do it the hard way any more.
JosephX
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JosephX,
If the content in your post to beancurd was directed at me and my family's organization, than I am sad to see that's the way you feel. I'm sorry if I offended you with my attempts to defend my point of view, but I don't think insulting me or my family's organization is a good way to promote brotherhood within our CLF community.
Neither my father nor myself teach martial arts for a living, we just try to do the best we can to honor those who were kind enough to offer us knowledge. The progression system that we are employing is new, in place primarily because our student base has grown and we wished to have a more concrete syllabus for newcomers to follow. If you have a better idea on how to handle this problem, I wish you would suggest one instead of insulting our methods and my family's organization.
I can't say that I'm not a little disappointed in the way this has gone, but I wish you the best of luck in what you do. However, I ask with all sincerity, that you do not insult my family simply because you were upset over the tone of our debate. If you have any concerns I welcome you contact me personally. Thank you.
Take Care,
Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association
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JosephX,
That is unfortunantely very true, to many teachers r selling out & r to scared to teach the old school way. Because they know 60 to 70% maybe more of students r to lazy, impatient & instead of cocentrating on the basics & what there on they r thinking about the next set & getting that shiny sash. The teachers know if they hold them back or dont show them flashy moves they will leave & take their $$$'s with them. So most sifus let their students pass, as long as they can remember a form. They dont even show them the applications & what there 4. Thats why KF's got a bad name to other m artists. Whats the saying flowery fists, no wonder.
If i was a teacher i would rather teach from my backyard or the local park & have 2, 3 dedicated students rather than have 20, 30 ****ty students & a big school. (****ty students, ****ty teacher)
Anyway have any of u guys heard of a clf jong called the Leg Dummy -Geuk Jong? if so whats it look like & it focus on?
Also the hand/leg set called Continuous Dual Kicking Form- Yin Yeung Teui Lin Wan?
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