Leaning question.

[Sam Wiley]

Considering that that quote is from Yang Ban-hou, I don't think I missed out on much.

Try pulling off an arm lock and strike in an uncooperative setting. It gets a bit more complicated.

I'm not big on throws. If they can get back up after I've touched them, I've done something wrong. All the throws I like throw him face-first into the ground or take his head or face and ram them into the ground, or else break the neck during the throw. I think too many people place far too much emphasis on being able to throw or push someone without being able to harm them, and every time I hear of throw, that's what I picture, some gullible twit trying to throw an attacker and not hurt him and that guy gets back up and tears their head off.

I prefer a much more pragmatic approach to the postures. Instead of trying to make each one into a special throw that's going to get your a$$ kicked, why not use the strike to put him down and out?

Let's examine a few applications, shall we?

#1: Block a right punch with your left P'eng, punching him in the throat as you do so. Then wrap your right hand over the top of his right elbow, and lever his arm upward, slamming your raised right knee into his shoulder, then wrench his arm out of its socket. You could also simply lock his arm instead of tearing his shoulder up, but that raising motion of the hand to the side of the head lends itself SO well to seriously messing him up. After the shoulder tear, you could strike him with the left palm. It really doesn't matter where if you've just ruined his shoulder, though.

#2: Block a left punch with your right hand, and strike him in the chest on the pectoral. This one's basic and taught pretty much everywhere.

#3: Snatch a punch out of the air with your right palm, cranking it downward and twisting it, and strike him in the temple. Not the "softest" application, but one that has saved my bacon before.

These are all fighting applications. They are all Taiji applications, no need to prop up your art with applications from another art at all, even Shuai Chiao.

[shaolinboxer]

" All the throws I like throw him face-first into the ground or take his head or face and ram them into the ground, or else break the neck during the throw. I think too many people place far too much emphasis on being able to throw or push someone without being able to harm them"

IMO, neck breaking is for murders and mercenaries, not martial artists.

Throwing someone and not being able to harm them is very different from throwing someone and being able to not harm them.

[Sam Wiley]

And you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. I never said Taiji wasn't brutal. Breaking bones and joints, and the neck is just another one of these, is all a part of martial arts. Breaking someone's neck is extreme, but there are some times these types of things might be needed. In the past, martial artists were often paid bodyguards and mercenaries.

What good does it do to throw someone who has pulled a knife on you if you are not going to hurt him? Do you really think that just putting them down is going to help? I can throw people all day long and not seriously hurt them. Believe it or not, that stuff is easy. I'd much rather bank on a technique I KNOW will hurt someone than one I know will NOT. But you are more than welcome to risk your life by trying not to hurt someone bent on hurting you. Your life is yours, to save or throw away.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Sam Wiley


What good does it do to throw someone who has pulled a knife on you if you are not going to hurt him? Do you really think that just putting them down is going to help? I can throw people all day long and not seriously hurt them. Believe it or not, that stuff is easy. I'd much rather bank on a technique I KNOW will hurt someone than one I know will NOT. But you are more than welcome to risk your life by trying not to hurt someone bent on hurting you. Your life is yours, to save or throw away.

Sam, I don't think you've ever experienced a good throw. Go check out David Lin's group in Atlanta. I've been hit hard, but the first time I was thrown properly with NO FORCE ADDED it opened up a whole new world to me.

Seriously Sam, you're are so close to what may be the best Shuai Chiao in the country, if not the world. It would be a shame to pass that up.

FYI, Brush Knee done corerectly will piledrive you directly onto your head, if you so choose.

[GLW]

The throw in Brush Knee is just like one from the Zha quan system.

Basically, you use it:

say opponent has right leg forward in right bow stance (fron stance)

You obviously deal with the entering aspect and neutralizing any attack...but you step in with your left leg into bow stance placing your leg next to the opponent's on the outside of his right leg...(you are left leg to his right leg).

As you step and shift weight to this, the brush is actually a trap of the opponent's leg being pushed into your own leg as a trapping area.

The Push then goes against the opponents chest to throw him back using the trapped leg as a leverage point.

This move is also what the fancy palm to in front of the lead knee with the other hand extended forward into a knife palm strike is doing in Changquan.

It was well used by Grandmaster Wang Ziping in fighting a Russian Wrestler in Beijing in the first part of the 20th century.

(don't know if I described it well...hard to explain movements without 10,000 words.)

It is simply ONE of the options.

[Sum Guye]

you wrote "If they can get back up after I've touched them, I've done something wrong. "

doesn't 'getting back up' imply someone has meet with the floor?
(after what some extremists might consider, having been thrown?)

[Shooter]

They are all Taiji applications, no need to prop up your art with applications from another art at all, even Shuai Chiao

Sam, Shuai-chiao is as much within the scope of Tai Chi as Chin-na. It all starts to look the same once you get past the idea of styles dictating action. If I apply an arm-bar like Juji-gatame or Ude-gatame, a guy will say, "Yeah, but that's Judo"...HA! It's all Chin-na. Rhino-looks-at-the-moon may end up looking like o-guruma or harai-goshi. Swalllow-soars-to-the-sea may end up looking like Uchi-mata. I've never studied Bagua besides walking the circle and doing some postures for more than 10 years. I've never studied Judo, but I've scored points in competitive BJJ with Swallow, and the ref called it Uchi-mata. It's all a matter of perception. That ties in with the idea of leaning. Brush-knee-twist-step can be a strike or a throw, but it isn't confined to any stylistic nuance in order for it to be effective. It can be a straight-right counter against a leg-kick, or it can end up looking like Tai-otoshi in the case of a throw. If I have to lean to make either one work, that's what I'll do. I never lean in my form, but function takes precedent to satisfying some pedantic di(k on the sidelines.

General comments on the whole idea of training Tai Chi for martial application:

In Tai Chi, there's no such thing as techniques or stylistic applications...Just movement and energy management principles. If master so-and-so did something a long time ago, that's his thing. To formulate a paradigm for your own practice around what someone else did a hundred years ago is to live dangerously and vicariously. You're living outside of your own reality. If you're on the same level as master so-and-so, then you're wasting your time here...most of us will never "get it"

If, on the other hand, you're just like the rest of us mortals, then you have to have a more moderate paradigm formulated around your own reality. The only way to know how real it is is to get on the mat or in the ring and hash it out there. All this talk about martial application is just that...talk. If martial application is nothing more than a hobby wherein you collect an encyclopedia of techniques, no problem...just don't delude yourself with that collection of "knowledge" until you proof it against a skilled opponent. The same holds true for those of us who teach...my reality isn't what I would expect from a student. I have to consider their reality and not place a false horizon in front of them.

Maybe I'm at a very basic level where I'm missing something so many others seem to have a command over, but my reality is what I understand from getting on the mat and in the ring, and pressure-testing in the kwoon.

End of rant...

[Drone]

Not sure what happened to the talk on leaning, but I was recently told by my sifu that because of my build that I should have some foward lean. Yeah pretty simplistic I know but I am new at this.

[Water Dragon]

I used to train in Evanston. Who are you working with, Drone?

[taijiquan_student]

Be carefull with leaning. It may be all fine and dandy when you're doing your form, or other solo stuff, but once in tuishou leaning will probably get you pulled if the other guy is good. Also, in sanshou, leaning is a great way to get them to think "I'm tired of holding you up" and have them empty where your pressure is and throw you right down to the ground. And because you had that forward movement from leaning, you hit even harder than if you weren't.

I'm sure you can find a way to lean in your practice and stay internally connected, but I just can't imagine making contact with someone while leaning. It's just too risky. (not that I don't lean ever. I really need to fix that )
----------------------------------------------
on throwing...

Many people here are saying they want to put them out, seriously,if they are in a situation like that. If you know how to throw someone, and land them on their kidney or back (assuming they don't know how to fall) that will hurt them sufficiently to give you enough time to get away. You don't always have to square off and have the dramatic,Thunderdome kung-fu death-match.

On the other hand, I personally wouldn't try for a throw. I would use strikes or knee kicks and all that stuff, mainly because I'm smaller.

[Braden]

http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/iMovieTheater4.html

[Sam Wiley]

I do that same maneuver as a strike, and it's listed above. But there's absolutely no reason to lean with it, not even for pure physical power. It's a strike to the pectoral or neck for a KO.

I never said there was no throwing period in Taiji. What I said was that there was no need to prop up Taiji with another art. And them meeting the floor doesn't always have to do with being thrown.

[Kevin Wallbridge]

It seems to me that to lean requires that one aspect of the spine has to compensate for the change from vertical alignment. Its simple physics that the angle of gravitational acceleration is constant in regards to our bodies. So to lean requires that I "borrow" energy from somewhere else. The only way that my spine can be its most relaxed (when upright) is to have the centre of mass of the head, the chest and the pelvis all aligned.

It would be very hard to find maximum song if you were leaning. So I would say for Taijiquan that verticality is of first importance.

Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are different, as both sometimes "bend" the structure.

As for applications, I have been taught that every movement in Taijiquan has at least one hit, kick, chin-na, shuai-jiao and fajing application. Usually there are very many of each.

[Daniel Madar]

At least one classical style of taiji does lean. You can see the lean in the brush knee to the left.

[shaolinboxer]

Just noticing that the clip entitled "circle throw" is the same technique as "ude-mawashi".

Nifty .