So what's the deal with Wah Lum?

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by woliveri
NM wrote: Yes they can.

I guess the million dollar question now is why become a sifu? What's the incentive? Very few satellite schools that I know of can operate full time and support the sifu financially. So it seems like a lot of work on the Sifu with little opportunity for making a buck.

Well to answer both of your questions it depends on the individual.Everyone has their own reasons but a good reason,IMHO,would be to promote kung fu and help other be more healthy and/or teach them self defence.Remember the student should benifit from the teacher not the other way around.I think helping others through kung fu is a noble idea.



It's very true about keeping a school open.I've heard personally from many people to rethink if I should ever want to open up a school.The truth is I'm happy just being a student.Many students come and go and there's no way to garantee that the student will keep interersted.

[isol8d]

Fair enough. How much do I spend? Too much it seems, between ripping my pants, grinding out my shoes, buying weapons, jow, etc... Not even counting the tuition.

But if you have a good accountant, and you pay enough in taxes, you can figure out how to not pay for any of it

I know I could pay less or more for martial arts training in Orlando. There are a lot of schools, and we even have one the nations premier health clubs (RDV Sportscenter). Scaling against the price of a health club, I don't pay a lot. Scaling against the TKD class at the rec center by my house, I pay a lot. It's all perspective.

Then again, I can't imagine going to my sifu and saying "I don't think you should make a living doing this, so I'm not going to pay as much."

[Lode Runner]

Earth Dragon:
>You may be famous amous's best freind, and you may sell 10,000 cookies for him each year but does that mean you should be entitled to the recipe?<

Hua Lin Laoshi:
>5. Secrets. Yes. You only learn what your mature (and sometimes loyal) enough to handle. I would never teach a beginner a potentially deadly move. It's just like handing a loaded gun to someone who never touched a gun before.<

Neither of these analogies is applicable. I'm not talking about giving them the recipe or the gun; I'm talking about giving them the knowledge of the EXISTENCE of the recipe or gun. Of course I'm not advocating that you teach newbies advanced forms right away... I'm just saying that as a newbie, I want to know what I will eventually be learning.

However, woliveri says that this isn't applicable to WL except for Pui's daughter (lucky girl), so if no one cares to disagree with this statement I suppose we can let it drop.

>Lee Kwan Shan took the Jut Sow Mantis he learned in the north and combined it with his family style of Tam Tui. After creating Wah Lum it was primarily passed on in the south where he lived and taught. This was Master Chan's village and since he is the current GrandMaster he decided to add some of his family style (Mok Gar) to the system. <

But -- assuming there are any -- what are the fundamental differences? Does the introduction of these styles make wah lum harder or softer or more internal or more external or more circular or more linear? Does it make it more or less effective at short range vs. long range? etc.

>Lode Runner,

Who's your Sifu?<

Harry Lo. His website: http://www.wahlumkungfu.com/

I haven't researched his lineage, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that he is a 6th level dan.

Flem:

That is a very big concern you bring up, but my experiences tend to show otherwise. Considering the size of the classes, I've received a good amount of personal attention both from the Si-Jze's/Si-Hings and the Sifu.

Based on the replies so far, it seems to me like the only thing I should worry about is the political BS. I'm sorry, but if you ARE doing this to make money then you should treat it as such; a service rendered. What I do outside of class should be my own business and I certainly would not want to tie myself down to a single style if I do find out that I have a passion for MA. I always endevor to be respectful but my motives will always be cynical; I'm doing all of this for ME, not because I want to eventually become a Sifu myself and open up a school to continue the tradition. If I DID open up a school (hah) I would probably modify the style just as Pui did; I would want to teach based on what I have learned personally not copy what other people have merely told me is correct... but if I cannot study other styles then I have no method of judging other styles so I would have no recourse but to "continue the tradition" without making any actual contribution.

And I have a major problem with that.

[EARTH DRAGON]

You can what will eventually be taught but whats the rush?
I have many students that come in and ask questions about what lies ahead in 4 or 5 years and my reply is I will teach you in 4 or 5 years...... no reason to cloud their heads with things that they may never learn.
I have found that the more they think about what they will learn instead of what they should be concentrating on "The basics" the sooner they quit for they do not instill the patients that is neccesary to reach anything beyond begginer status.

And you want to know why secrets are held? you have answered your own question.........

As for Chan Pui's daughter inheriting the system you are correct... No non- chinese will ever inherit a chinese system... well I shoulnt say never but chances are slim to none....

P.S (dan) pronunced (don) refers to japanese degrees of ranking not chinese.....

[MiamiMantis]

Being the senior instructor for Wah Lum of Miami, I have been around since 1987 training under Sifu Shelly Huang. I think I've seen enough to put in my 2 cents....

Yes Wah Lum does have alot more kicks than other Northern Mantis systems.

Wah Lum does not have as many hooks and claws in the forms as say...Tai Chi Mantis or 7 Star, therefore it appears to be less Northern than other systems.

Also having forms in the system that have nothing to do with Mantis, (Leopard for example) make it seem like it is a mish mash of a bunch of things. Not true.

There no more politics in Wah Lum than in any other system. Of course everybody wants to be the "numba one guy". So there will always be a "differance of opinion" between some students.

I have been to the Temple many times and have learned quite a few forms in Orlando. Four of them personally from Master Chan.
Everybody in Orlando has been nice and are open to other students from out of town. I can't answer on the "closed door" stuff. Certain people have probally learned forms others haven't because they have the skill or "time in the system" to learn it. Why teach someone advanced forms who have not reached that level of skill?. Would you let someone perform open heart surgery on you after only 1-2 years of training???. No of course not they haven't reached that level of skill or knowledge yet.

People who compete in Wah Lum do change their forms for competition, but is not mandatory as far as I know. I always competed with my forms unaltered. Flash will always win over technical skill. Especially in Mc Dojo tournaments.

Sparring is done at our school but on a limited basis because of where we train. I can't speak for the Temple. But I do believe they spar on Thursday nights if I'm not mistaken.

As far as seminars go the only time you can't go is if you didn't pay. I've never had a problem.

Thats what I have noticed over the years....I am not an expert on what goes on up in Orlando, so you'll have to talk to someone who trains there. If anybody ever comes to Miami, you are more than welcome to train with us.

[SaMantis]

ED, you're the voice of reason.

Many people in martial arts want to learn the "secrets" of their chosen style. Fact is, that's up to the discretion of the instructor. It's not just a Wah Lum thing, as ED pointed out. Frankly, when I started Wah Lum, nobody ever told me I was going to learn special secrets.

Advanced styles -- I'm not worried about being taught "everything" when I learn a form. I learn the applications that the instructor feels I would understand, and I practice the form to see what I can do with it. As I increase in experience/ability, my understanding of the form increases. For example, in another thread there was a discussion of a form called Little Open Gate, which is taught to beginners. For one move, the more experienced MAs here (both current and ex-WL'ers) described many more applications than I had visualized/been taught. Meaning that this short beginner's form has advanced applications.

As a writer, the analogy I can give here is that grade schoolers don't write novels. Sure, their spelling is good and they can put together a sentence, but it's going to take several years of training before they can write "War and Peace."

Politics -- well, politics is politics. Get more than 10 people together and you've got politics. The temple has a lot of students and Master Chan is here, and there is politics on every level.

Not studying other styles -- Sifu is very traditional, and he wants to run his school as traditionally as possible. This was a big thing back in his day, and at many CMA schools it still is. As a student, just be honest with your sifu; if you have concerns or Wah Lum is not working for you, talk to your sifu. Most of the people I started WL with who eventually left never talked to their instructor about what was bugging them. The ones who did, the instructor made every effort to help them out, and only one guy who did this has left (but he was unhappy because we weren't learning "how to kill people").

Lode Runner, if you decide to take WL, focus on what you came for: learning kung fu. Practice hard, listen to your sifu, don't worry about the politics. Enjoy working out and learning about Chinese culture.

If you're ever at the temple, come over and say hi.

Sam Mazzotta

P.S. -- Gung Hay Fat Choy, everyone!!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lode Runner
I guess everyone read more into question 5 than you intended. Just take a look at the student handbook for a list of forms on each level. Ask one of the students to show you a few forms. You could also buy one or two of the anniversary videos. Some of the videos have advanced forms on them. Once you get up around 7th level your training becomes a little more customized according to your abilities.

[Joe Mantis]

Lode Runner

At Harry's school you'll probably just be learning forms and lion dance. He doesn't do much if any applications. Look at your hand book and that's about it.

If you want to know what you'll be learning, just look at the Sifu's who have "paid their dues" and see what they have learned. A lot of those guys have been in the system for a long time and still are only learning at seminars.

[flem]

secrets?

i do not believe there are secrets in WL or in any other style for that matter. of course there is advanced material, and in WL i think it can be reached by anyone. the whole thing is understanding how all the movements integrate into one another. once this is found then learning so called secrets only adds to ones ability and understanding.


lode runner
because of the above, i am saying that your concerns in learning kung fu should not be concerned with authenticity or even whether you will be limited in your learning, i do not think they play a part. what i am saying is that yours and everyone else involved in WL or any style for that matter, should be concerned with what the arts promote. are they concerned with the well being of the student- beyond making sure that they get enough attention so that they keep paying, are they concerned with the integrity of the style, and by this i mean, are the students(advanced also) taught the importance of humility, respect, and all the other words associated with the definition of a true martial artist? my understanding is that because of my previous post about numbers, that many faults go unchecked, and this is a shame.
your belief in personal expression has little place in WL.

[Lode Runner]

EARTH DRAGON:

>P.S (dan) pronunced (don) refers to japanese degrees of ranking not chinese.....<

Oh. ****, I need to stop doing so much research; I'm confusing myself...

Well I think I recall reading that he's a 6th level somethingoranother, then. Is that helpful?

Hua Lin Laoshi:

>I guess everyone read more into question 5 than you intended. Just take a look at the student handbook for a list of forms on each level...<

But that isn't "secret." "Secret" does not equal "advanced." You wouldn't call quantum physics secret... but nonetheless you can't take it or even understand most of it unless you've taken a bevy of previous classes.

To me, "secret" implies that you don't learn the existence of this thing until it's time for you to learn it. I am against this style of teaching. To use Samantis's analogy, it's like the difference between reading war and peace and then years later, after you've grown into a full-fledged writer, writing a similar novel vs. reading only books that are on par with your writing skill and having to work your way up to the privilege of even being allowed to read War and Peace.

IMO, gazing upon greatness nourishes both your motivation and your sense of perspective.

[Lode Runner]

Joe Mantis:

>At Harry's school you'll probably just be learning forms and lion dance. He doesn't do much if any applications. Look at your hand book and that's about it.<

"Additional opportunity for "die-hard" students who are interested in extra-cirriculum training, such as tournament competition, martial arts demonstration team, Lion Dance team, social get together, or just want more training."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to successfully compete in a tournament (and not look like a fool) you need to be taught application, right?


***
You know, there really needs to be a feedback system of sorts. Like someone who reviews MA schools. I really don't know who to believe.

[woliveri]

You know, there really needs to be a feedback system of sorts. Like someone who reviews MA schools. I really don't know who to believe.

Well these responses should be enough to give you awareness of some of our opinions. Most, if not all, come from personal experience. My suggestion is if your comfortable with what's been said then visit the school and make your choice. Most of us didn't have the opportunity to review such comments during our time. Still, for me, WL was a good experience. One that I'll always remember but there may be a time when you'll want to expand your knowledge where the temple cannot (or will not) provide. It'll be then you'll need to move on to satisfy your thirst for knowledge.

Secrets: I agree with flem that there are no secrets, just other forms that provide a difference of potential between the master and the student. However, in order for me to understand this I had to go outside the temple and study from a couple of different teachers which gave me a different prespective (internal ma, TCM, qi gong). So the information is out there but not taught by the temple.

[Joe Mantis]

Lode Runner

The tournament training is basically on forms. Even at that there is not much emphasis on doing difficult "flashy" techniques which the audience and judges love.
Don't count on him teaching you much sparring techniques either.

Basically in a sparring situation one can get by with "kickboxing."

You will not learn how to use your kung fu techniques while sparring. And I do believe that one studies/pracitices/trains so that they can use it.

Look at the school. How many students are sparring competitivly?
How many are competing at the advanced level in forms competition and doing well?
You'll get a decent foundation, but for more advanced MA training (especially with applications) you will need to go elsewhere.

Check your area for other kung fu schools. I think there is a school in Merritt Island and one in Titusville. It may even beneficial just to talk with the Sifu's and watch a class just so you can make a comparison, even if you don't plan on joining that school.

I agree that you should know what you are getting into and commend your efforts to make an informed choice about training at a particular school.

[18elders]

Go to other mantis schools and take some classes and compare.

Ask if this is how their curriculum is taught?
This is information provided by Tainan mantis(pong lai's kung fu brother)

Also, before I mention the method you should know that this was at one time one of the inner door secret methods that outer door students didn't learn. Nor did they know of its existance.
To this day you will see that many schools have partner forms without even knowing that they are doing the solo version of a partner form.

The first mention I have come across of a variant of this method is from 2 books in the Ming dynasty which explain spear fighting and stick fighting. These books have yet to be translated into English.(details in TJPM forum under weapons folder)

I have also seen it explained for straight sword fighting in a method identical to PM.

The first public mention of the method in PM comes from WHF. My teacher has the same four steps he listed with an additional step at the end.

1.Lien
-solo form practice

2.ling
-solo form becomes a two man form

3.pi
-two man form becomes many small drills that each go like a merry-go-round.

4.tsai
-students learn how the drills are recombined in a different order.

5.gan
- a step unique to my teacher which is fighting.
This aspect didn't exist with weapons as the result would be crippling or death and so was only used on the enemy.

Details:
-You know how you have to make your solo form look top notch before you learn another?
Well, the same applies to these steps. Each step must be as good looking, quick and powerful as your solo form before moving on.

-There is another method of fighting also mentioned in Wang Lang's 18 family sonnet.
This is where one player performs the technique on the other player and is successful.
This method has been best preserved in arts like judo and shuai jiao(although my teacher also teaches it).

In this method the opponent doesn't get to defend or defends unsuccessfully and so is thrown or locked.
The disadvantage of this method is that it would eliminate all your sparring partners very quickly if you practiced techniques like "nose break" and "groin smash" which are more suitable for the first method.



Isold 8-
The parade you mentioned, you said it should have been a wah lum parade.
You should thank pong lai for that.
We were invited to be in the parade but when master chan found out he had a fit and said if we were in it he wouldn't be. He told the association he would bring 5 schools to it to keep us out. Pong lai had already told the association we wouldn't be in it so master chan wouldn't be ****ed.
So much for learn kindness , fellowship

[Lode Runner]

Joe:

What exactly are you basing your assumptions on? Is it what you read on the website, or in your experience are all WL schools run in this manner?