So what's the deal with Wah Lum?

[9dragonshijin]

O.K.
1.
I never said not to question anything or to avoid research, but you already at the school, and have not even taken the time to watch a class.
2.
You are putting the cart before the horse when you speak of blending styles. You might want to try a style before you go "blending" them.
3.
You do Tai Chi , correct? Now explain to someone who has never even seen Tai Chi what is all about. Get my point?
Look I did it w/out even calling you any names.

[9dragonshijin]

I am giving you good advice, and that is , try it.
Its a lot about feel , and you can't research that. If you are like most people, you will try a few different styles anyway before it is all said and done. If you trust your Sifu enough to learn Tai chi, then why not kung fu? Try not to overthink this stuff.

[18elders]

are you in a bad mood or what???
All i did was answer his question,
I don't have anything against poi except some of his politics that i will discuss at a later date.
I stated that we are ex-wah lum so people will understand we aren't just making **** up that we are speaking with experience(alot more than you have).
Master shr will have a few things to discuss with poi himself i'm sure .
Glad to answer any questions you have.

As to settle it with tom, that's another story

[NorthernMantis]

To tell the truth I'm in a greatd mood right now I did get sort of mad when I found out that this whole argument that we've been having for sometime now was because of some problems you had with someone else and I got swept along.Evrything is cool now

[isol8d]

I stated that we are ex-wah lum so people will understand we aren't just making **** up that we are speaking with experience(alot more than you have).

You have a lot more experience doing what? I am confused with that statement. I looked up pong lai on google, came up with one "Culturural Celebration" day in Tennessee, and it said Pong Lai Wu Ji Praying Mantis Kung Fu Club (formerly Wah Lum Kung Fu).

Link to that page

How long has Pong Lai been around? What is the history of your system? What branch of mantis would you associate with your style?(Jut Sow, Tai Ji, Chut Sing, etc) I have seen you mention Master Shr, maybe you could give a little background on him/her?

I believe you said you're in Tampa, right? Are there any other schools closer to Orlando?

Thanks

[flem]

i have been answering possitively on WLs behalf as concerns the style itself, but the question is, having much to do with becoming a new student as lode runner is considering, is why all the talent dissappears? t. fleming, d. wong, a. d'agostino, and many others too numerous to mention. yes, each individuals case can be dissected, and a reason found, but what is important is that much time was invested in them and by them, as well as 18elders, his group, and myself included. this problem of diminishing high ranking individuals should make new students as well as older ones question why.

[SaMantis]

1. flem, you've asked this question before. If you were in the system for as long as you say you are, you (and other ex-senior students) know the story behind each of those guys (not all left for the same reasons). Diminishing talent? There's still plenty of talent in WL, at every level.

2. Northern Mantis, you hit the nail on the head with Pong Lai. There is a concerted effort by them on this forum to discredit Wah Lum and bring any "wavering" students to their side. The deal with the New Year parade in Orlando has less to do with what's said on this forum as with what's happening out in the "real world."

Pong Lai can continue to diss WL online but at this point, many forum members are on to them. They don't have to have the whole story to know bad martial etiquette when they see it (or read it).

3. Lode Runner, keep researching and asking questions, but not just on this forum. Ask Sifu Lo, ask your Tai Chi instructor, visit other schools in your area (not just praying mantis but anything that interests you). Then dedicate yourself to one art and don't worry about the nitpicky BS from people not in your system (ex-WL or not).

Fact is, your first year in a kung fu system, your mind will be more occupied with fighting the pain in your legs (from stance training) than in fighting an opponent.

Now I need to be practicing more than talking, so this is my last post on this thread. And if PL'ers can't come up with anything more original than "Wah Lum doesn't teach application," maybe they should sign off, too.

Sam

[flem]

samantis

yes, i know each situation. but my point is that a major effort should have been made to keep them. i am sure there is talent there now, but along the lines of those i mentioned? doubt it. take d'agostino, for the time he taught and the small classes he had he sure promoted the style.three schools, two clubs, plus the talent that now is at the pong lai group. seems to me he was valuable enough to work out his differences. i think you should think of my points carefully instead of immediately defending, remember i was there, i know that you feel like standing up for your school, i did also. but you stand up just as well by understanding the problem i mentioned and working to correct it. it is a problem- whatever the individual reasons for their departure.

[spiralstair]

Flem: Mark Twain said it best," Every one is a moon, and has a dark side which he shows to nobody." Do you really want to have a public discussion about those people you mentioned in which that which they chose to hide is brought out into the open? Or do you just want to limit it to the things you feel WL has done to wrong them?

People and organizations based on their ideas tend to be fallible. A patient practitioner learns to take the good with the bad and find their own way without wasting a lot of time concentrating on their own ideas of other's shortcomings. At some point it becomes time to move on.

[Joe Mantis]

Sa Mantis

I will agree that there is still plenty of talent in WL at evert level, However it is definately not at the level of those who left. You can't tell me that there are guys who can touch the level of...
well you know who they are (I hope).

Lode Runner:

Sounds as if you are into self expression and you want to do that in the MA's. go for it. Just be aware of being restricted to going to
"approved" seminars only. Close mindeness, exclusive attitudes, and the such.
best of luck to you.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Lode Runner
So what you're looking for is a complete list of forms, drills, 2-man sets, techniques and training methods for the Wah Lum system. Do you want the recipe for Master Chan's iron palm jow too?
The higher level material is reserved for the ones who are serious enough to complete the curriculum in the handbook. BTW, the handbook also lists advanced material, it just doesn't lay out what level they are on. And this material is not reserved for Master Chan's daughter only. I'm not sure exactly what it is you're trying to find out. I suggest you look around and ask questions and pick what you think is right for you. Just don't expect to learn all the advanced material from multiple masters as there are very few who are willing to give up information they spent their lives learning to just anyone who drops by for a year or two.

Personally I don't look all that far into the future. Most people don't get through the curriculum listed in the handbook so what's the sense in showing them beyond that? woliveri didn't get too far, 18Elders was a Wah Lum Sifu but I believe he was missing some of the material in the curriculum list. I don't think Joe Mantis went very far either. Pong Lai and Tainan Mantis didn't go as far as 18Elders. The rest are just trying to learn Wah Lum from videos or something.

Joe Mantis
Are you saying that you didn't learn the application to second exercise? Or did you think it was something other than mantis like woliveri?

flem
I'm sure you had some negative experiences with Wah Lum which is why you left but my question is Does this happen in other styles as well? If I go to a local Wing Chun school will I see 10 or 20 high level students or do most drop out (for one reason or another) before reaching Sifu level? I believe you can walk into any Kung Fu or Karate school anywhere and find the same thing. In any school I ever joined or just watched I never saw more than a few high level people. Sooner or later they all drop out except for a very small number. Show me a school that cranks out 5 or 10 Sifu's a year and I'll believe that students stay long term in other schools.

[China Village]

You guys sure are fun to watch go at it. I used to troll on your threads, but I don't even have to do that anymore. You former and current wah lummers find it easy to start sh*t all by yourselves. After reading through all of these threads, I've gotten a pretty good idea of who's on what side.

18Elders - It seems that allot of people on your side of the fence (former wah lum) talk about the politics that drove you away. I hear things thrown around about secrets, seminars, and lack of application, but nobody ever seems to come out and say what is on their mind - what the real deal is. Like in your last post you said you have problems with politics that you'd discuss later. If they're such serious issues whay wait? Not a criticisim, just a curiosity.

Wah Lum People - Sometimes you guys seem over sensitive. From the eyes of an outsider it looks like you guys start everything. Again, I'm not trying to criticise you, just letting you know the picture you're painting of your system. It seems like you have something to hide.

Personally, I don't care. I'm happy where I am, and have learned to stay out of the kung fu world based on politics alone (it seems to be a theme in most systems). Why don't you guys just get together and have a Battle Royal or something like that. Maybe jello wrestling (oops, I made a joke. Please don't take it the wrong way ). Just a thought...

[flem]

spiralstair

from your past posts i can see that you are intelligent. i think that your quote answers my question, or it atleast gives it light(no pun intended). indeed if everyone has a dark side it only strengthens my point/issue. why weren't these problems worked out with the above mentioned?
no, i do not want to "air" each personal situation, in fact i only went as far as i did to give credence to what i was saying.

hua lin laoshi

i am certain that there is a large turn over wherever you go. but i can only imagine that it is largely low and middle ranking students, not those who made their living by it.
in my own case, i lived by it, promoted it, and basically sacrificed alot of myself and those around me. i believed in it's cause right up to the end. in fact, i didn't really realize how distant the sayings on the alter were until i got out and as i said before, was able to see it from the outside. i realize that nothing that i say will change anyones opinion who is "in it", such as yourself, or samantis. but perhaps it will let you see things in a different light. i don't think it is all bad, but i do think it could be extraordinary if what i have spoken of is addressed, and corrected- if the words on the alter were the law, and everyone was made to lve by them. and it's no skin off my back either way

[Lode Runner]

Northern Mantis:

>Well he probably meant 6th generation but si gung is 6th generation and Harry Lo would be at 7th.Well my question is does Harry Lo that he is saying online?<

Honestly, I don't remember where I'm remembering this "6" from. I've been researching a few Judo/Jujutsu schools as well (trying to get my sis interested in MA's only she's a Japanese addict so she won't even consider kung fu) so I suppose it's possible I'm remembering a certain JMA school where the sensei was a 6th level dan. My life is so chaotic; I've been pretty brain-addled these past few months... you must wonder why I choose to go with TC first, huh?

>Ex-wah lum people are angry with Master Chan so they attack begginers in the art who know have nothing to do with this.How ethical of them.

Somehow this seemingly innocent question turned into another flame thread.Whta a coincidnce huh?

...[snip]

18elders is mad at si gung so he attacks innocent people unaware of the politics.Enough said.<

Ermmmmm... I should point out that it was 9dragonshijin that I perceived to be "picking on me." 18elders has been very reasonable and logical thus far.


9dragonshijin:

>1. I never said not to question anything or to avoid research, but you already at the school, and have not even taken the time to watch a class. <

And I will get around to it, but you know what? I got some major complicated **** going on in my life right now. Besides the reasons I've already laid out, I really don't have the time to sit through an entire class (yes I have watched a few minutes here and there; mostly stick fighting) and quiz my Sifu on the style. And even if I did, I want to know just what I should be asking. I don't like to rush into a situation and get sucked into anything... and I don't want to say something stupid and offend him ("hey I heard you guys don't teach much application...")

>You are putting the cart before the horse when you speak of blending styles. You might want to try a style before you go "blending" them.<

I'm merely looking at said horse and wondering if, down the road, I could possibly buy said cart and hook it up. It's called planning ahead.

>You do Tai Chi , correct? Now explain to someone who has never even seen Tai Chi what is all about. Get my point?
Look I did it w/out even calling you any names.<

I didn't call you a name... directly. And while I probably couldn't explain the essence of TC to a newbie, I could explain what it does (improves coordination, balance, focus) and what it doesn't do (build large muscles, offer hard and quick MA applications (well, unless you're at a "REAL" TC school), etc.) Finding out that their sparring practice differs from other kung fu schools will affect how well this style works in RL situations... something that I am more interested in than tournament situations.

I am also very interested (LATER ON... like years from now. yes I do think that far ahead sometimes) in the possibility of combining a grappling art (Judo, Aikido, BJJ) with a hard kung fu style so finding out that I would be banned from WL for attending another school is relevant as well.

>I am giving you good advice, and that is , try it.
Its a lot about feel , and you can't research that. If you are like most people, you will try a few different styles anyway before it is all said and done. If you trust your Sifu enough to learn Tai chi, then why not kung fu? Try not to overthink this stuff.<

I really can't afford the time and money it would cost me to simply rush in. I appreciate your point of view; even after sitting through a TC class I was still very surprised at how I felt after my first lesson. But if I can, I'd rather not waste money and time or accidentally insult my Sifu so I would appreciate it if you respected my decision to do a little more research first. Thank you.

Hua Lin Laoshi:

>So what you're looking for is a complete list of forms, drills, 2-man sets, techniques and training methods for the Wah Lum system. Do you want the recipe for Master Chan's iron palm jow too?<

Sure.

>Personally I don't look all that far into the future. Most people don't get through the curriculum listed in the handbook so what's the sense in showing them beyond that? woliveri didn't get too far, 18Elders was a Wah Lum Sifu but I believe he was missing some of the material in the curriculum list. I don't think Joe Mantis went very far either. Pong Lai and Tainan Mantis didn't go as far as 18Elders.<

I think that this makes my point precisely. I want to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel so when the going gets tough, I'LL KNOW WHAT I'M STRIVING FOR.

[Lode Runner]

Joe:

>Sounds as if you are into self expression and you want to do that in the MA's. go for it. Just be aware of being restricted to going to "approved" seminars only. Close mindeness, exclusive attitudes, and the such.
best of luck to you.<

flem:

>i have been answering possitively on WLs behalf as concerns the style itself, but the question is, having much to do with becoming a new student as lode runner is considering, is why all the talent dissappears? t. fleming, d. wong, a. d'agostino, and many others too numerous to mention. yes, each individuals case can be dissected, and a reason found, but what is important is that much time was invested in them and by them, as well as 18elders, his group, and myself included. this problem of diminishing high ranking individuals should make new students as well as older ones question why.<

Can you guys be more specific? Seriously, just lay it all out for me. I really think that you should be able to relate your experiences honestly without being flamed, regardless of how popular your sentiments are. But even if you don't have the time, if you could be so kind as to link to a few older threads I'd appreciate it.

What are some of the specific instances you've found where WL was more close-minded than most other kung fu schools (and just as importantly, what are these other schools that you're comparing it to?) How do most non-WL sifus (or Japanese sensei's for that matter) react when you tell them that you plan on going to a seminar or beginning study at another school? How does WL's sparring differ? I just noticed that in the handbook they say "absolutely no full contact sparring permitted"; what does that mean exactly and how dangerous is full contact sparring anyway? What exactly does the term "application" mean? (I've actually been bluffing this whole time... I assumed that it was shorthand for "real life applications; i.e. streetfighting" but I could be wrong.) And what were the reasons for those people you mentioned quitting?

Conversely, do any wah lummers find any of these things not to be true? Have you studied at several kung fu schools and not found WL to be any more closeminded or political than the rest? (and again, what schools are you comparing it to?) Do you feel that you are trained for RL confrontations? Have you ever been in a "real" fight against a trained opponent and managed to defend yourself adequitely? How has WL fared in tournaments compared to the other styles? etc.

Like I said, if only someone could write reviews for these places...