Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst ... 34567 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 183

Thread: So what's the deal with Wah Lum?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fort Lauderdale
    Posts
    1,064
    Somehow this seemingly innocent question turned into another flame thread.Whta a coincidnce huh?
    The same thing was on my mind Anyways I'm not paying much attention like before.Just people with problems that's all.

    Judo is pretty cool for a JMA my mom did it when she was small.I know a Judoka pretty well but I never got to touch hands.
    killer kung fu commando streetfighter who has used his devastating fighting system to defeat hordes of attackers in countless combat situations

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    1,994
    Well.. heck, this is interesting..
    i only passed my first test with Master Chan before focusing on Tai Chi (that was 1990). Since that time i have trained directly with Master Chan and offer these observations.. First, and foremost, he is just another person, like all of us. He has emotions, issues, oh yeah, and an incredible art he is willing to share.. for a fee, and that fee is not limited to $$, it includes dedication, sincerity and contribution to the system.. you know, like helping to clean up around the temple, like giving of your talents to help in ways not directly connected with MA.. What many don't take time to consider is that like most "Masters", Master Chan has dedicated his LIFE to the art.. we come in for a few hours a day/week and expect to receive the "keys to the kingdom".. those keys are earned, not bought..

    Master Chan has been nothing but fair to me.. i have asked to go to seminars by others.. sometimes he says yes, sometimes no.. but, in each case he explains why.. "not good for you", or.. "yeah, yeah.. you go, moon chai".. He has taken time to explain/demonstrate in detail all that he has taught me.. not without pointing out my weaknesses or poor interpretations with embarrasing commentary.. but, he understands the individual students, he knows i can take it.. for others, he can be extraordinarily compassionate..

    I have seen him invest much time in very talented students, only to watch them return disrespect.. again, i assert he is just another person like any of us... he can hurt, he can respond negatively, he can be human, too.. Sometimes we hold our "Masters" up as some kind of "deities", that's our personal issues, not reality..

    Seattle, i believe it was 1997, John Leong's tournament.. i think i counted 14 "Masters" sitting at a table.. presided by Master Chan, i observed (i wasn't sitting there, so this is conjecture on my part) that differences of opinion were deferred to Chan Pui.. My point is that regardless of personal opinions, Chan Pui and the WahLum system he leads enjoys a high degree of respect, and that respect is built on performance, demonstration, effectiveness, and.. the tireless efforts of Master Chan..

    Much has been said about Master Chan's dedication to Family.. It is a cultural trait, and a virtue to be admired.. all things being equal, forsaking family for others is not a trait i would want from myself or my Teacher.. If you had to choose between paying for college for you own child or someone else's.. well.. you get the picture..

    Life at the top is difficult.. everyone wants to be there, you are the biggest target on the block, and others find it easier to tear-down well-deserved reputations than to build one of their own.. I believe that the future of CMA, the novices that read these postings, must be confused and concerned about the quality of the current cast of players.. Will we offer them stones to throw at other systems/Masters.. or, stones to strengthen the walls of their own systems.

    Be well, do good deeds (deeds define us)...

    PS.. Master Chan's generosity is legendary, both to those deserving, and those not so deserving..
    Apologies to my Kung Fu brothers and sisters for jumping in like this, but i just needed to express my personal opinion.. i, too, may have some issues.. but i will take them up with whom i have the issues, not a public airing that only breeds more "issues"..
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    629
    Hi Bob,

    What many don't take time to consider is that like most "Masters", Master Chan has dedicated his LIFE to the art.. we come in for a few hours a day/week and expect to receive the "keys to the kingdom".. those keys are earned, not bought..

    This is an incorrect generalization. You are implying that no one else has in their hearts to become a Master of their art. Personally, I think you have described MC fairly well but in this case, you see, no one outside the family would be brought to Master level. No one. This should be known up front.

    Also, I think this is a great medium for exchanging thoughts and ideas about a system. If a person can look at the comments objectively then he/she can see when someone is flaming or being sencere.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    278
    taichibob

    some of the instances that i related, including my own, were things that were brought up in a private setting. i do not know every detail of every situation, but i can tell you that in my own, and atleast one other case, that by quiting, i was later defined as thrown out. and i have heard several other derrogatory comments about as well. so as far as appreciating MC's human side and the care and respect that's fine, but maybe that is because you are playing ball his way.
    i am not going to come right out and say what i mean, because people have been burned right here on KF online without giving out their profile(politics work wonders), but if you have been around awhile you'll understand when i say that there is a "fox in the hen house"- the problem has never been with MC, but with the fox

    lode runner

    i do not want to address other people's personal business, except to say what i already have - but i will say this, alot of conflict seems to arise when sifu's find the ability to think, whether that involves kicking out their own students for violating the schools codes, or choosing to remain small time-teach fewer students. of the sifu's who left, their mark in WL is legendary, some for their training, others for their days in competition. much less can be said of those who remain, in fact everything they do is a comparison to those others

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    629
    but if you have been around awhile you'll understand when i say that there is a "fox in the hen house"- the problem has never been with MC, but with the fox

    d.a.m.n flem. That is perfect. I was trying to think of a way to say that in good taste but couldn't come up with it... Dittos!!!

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    164
    Dear _______: Oops, gave yourself away on that one.

    Of the Sifu's that remain, much can be said;
    They're loyal
    They're not bitter
    They're still learning
    They're not blowing their own horn on the internet while pretending to talk about others.
    They're still on the 'inside', while __(name goes here)__ et.al seem to feel a little bit 'left out' and a little bit angry.
    Should it not be time soon to let it all go?

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    747
    woliveri
    I don't see that in TaiChiBob's post at all. You might have it in your heart to be a master but it takes more than dreaming about it to succeed. Part-time training does not create a master.

    flem
    The higher you go in Wah Lum the more it hurts MC when you leave. Unfortunately for the rest of us MC is not as open as he used to be before he got burned by his disciples and others. Here's a non-Wah Lum personal story. The first Kenpo school I went to was small but the Sensei had aspirations of promoting Black Belts and expanding to a chain of schools. I remember a senior student who wanted to be a singer. He landed a steady gig in Atlantic City after the casinos opened up so he left. Sensei was extremely angry. When Sensei was younger he played bass guitar in a band while learning Karate. He finally had to choose one and he chose Karate. Because of that he couldn't understand when someone else made the other choice. After awhile I became a senior student. When I had reason to leave I quit. Again he got extremely angry and wanted my belt and certificate back. There were a couple of others that left around my time as well. To the best of my knowledge the only one to open a school was his son. I'm sure he got a bad attitude when nobody stayed long enough to reach black belt and open a school so he put all his effort into his son. Can you honestly say you would feel differently? Like TaiChiBob said, MC is human. He has some good traits and like anyone else he has some faults.

    And not all the hens are the dumb clucks you think they are. Remember, these are Kung Fu hens. Some strong as a horse, others wise as a dragon.
    Last edited by Hua Lin Laoshi; 02-15-2002 at 01:16 PM.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    629
    Hua Lin Laoshi

    Part-time training does not create a master.

    I guess we really need to define what part time is. If you're talking about 2 or 3 times a week then, yes. However, most, if not all, of the senior students flem is speaking of ate, drank, and breathed kung fu and most likely still do. They were there everyday, twice a day for years. How much more do you want? There are only so many hours in a day and the body can only take so much training before it becomes negative/detrimental. The body needs time to recover.

    In your above story the problem there is with the Sensi, not the students. He is wrongly expecting something in return for his teaching without making arrangements prior to the student starting the school. If a teacher truely loves to teach and loves his students he will expect nothing in return and thusly will not, can not, ever be disappointed.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    747
    woliveri
    Your mixing comments. The master thing has nothing to do with flem's comments. It was a response to your comment to TaiChiBob. Get with the program. Are you saying some of these ex-Wah Lum people are masters?

    Concerning the story. You missed the point again. You need to drop your pre-conceived notions when you read and post here. It's clouding your comprehension. The point is he put an effort into training people that didn't stick with him. There was no agreement or understanding so he shouldn't have felt like he did but the fact is, being human, that's how he felt. At least that's my interpretation. I'm guessing MC feels somewhat the same. Dissappointed, betrayed? It's human nature. What about the students in the instructor program? Or the ones who went as far as opening a school and then left? You think it's wrong for him to expect some loyalty out of these people? You think it's ok for them to get certified to open a school and then bail out on him? And I know for a fact that some of these people got a lot of extras from MC, such as money, gifts for school openings, opportunities for outside training, free tuition, etc. Everybody owes him. Some for equipment he let them have up front which they have yet to pay for, others for favors involving their personal lives. Things I'm not going to get specific about on this forum.

    BTW, what does your icon say?
    Last edited by Hua Lin Laoshi; 02-15-2002 at 02:31 PM.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    629
    Ok, the flem part seems to be tripping you up. Let me refine the statement:

    I guess we really need to define what part time is. If you're talking about 2 or 3 times a week then, yes. A good many senior students that I have known ate, drank, and breathed kung fu and most likely still do. They were there everyday, twice a day for years. How much more do you want? There are only so many hours in a day and the body can only take so much training before it becomes negative/detrimental. The body needs time to recover.

    Better? The point is that Bob made the statement that MC gave his life for his kung fu. I'm saying is there are many more who do the same but will not be brought to Master level no matter what they do.

    I gotta break, I'll give you a response on the next segment you wrote later.

    My Icon says "Qi Gong"

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    747
    Well, maybe I'm way off base but my personal opinion is that becoming a master has more to do with what you do with your knowledge and training and not what someone gives you. If a master teaches you everything he knows does that automatically make you a master?

    What constitutes a master, how much you know or how much you can do? Can you be a spear master and not have any empty hand skills?

    Is a master simply one who knows a complete system?

    How will you know when you are a master? Will someone give you a certificate?

    It seems to me what you were expecting from Wah Lum was an ending point. What is the last thing you learn that completes your training. When do I reach a point where you have nothing left to teach me. That kind of thing. In my opinion that's a personal decision.

    Maybe you should stop looking for easy answers handed to you by 'experts' and 'masters' and start looking inside and around you for what nature has to offer. Look at Wong Long, he learned from an insect! Study in depth what you already have and make your own discoveries. I don't mean you should give up the search for more knowledge, just don't depend so much on getting it handed to you. From our conversations I believe you have much to learn from the things you already know.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    629
    Well, maybe I'm way off base but my personal opinion is that becoming a master has more to do with what you do with your knowledge and training and not what someone gives you.

    Yes, the key word here is training. In my view it's not about forms or getting a certificate. It's about training. What are we trying to do? What are you training? Your muscles? Your speed? What is the single thing that is common in all Chinese Martial arts? What's your gong (gung)? How long did MC train before he became a Master? What makes him different than other people who may have trained just as hard but who are not Masters? In my opinion, qi. MC has control and can use his qi in his Martial Arts (as far as I can see). This is the one major thing that is kept from students. How to train and use your qi. I learned this by going outside the system and that was purely by chance. I didn't leave in frustration to what I wasn't being taught. By a twist of fate I learned from other people. This opened my eyes to what's out there. What I know right now I can practice a lifetime and never practice another form. Understand?

  13. #73

    Question explain

    What was this Chi training that you were missing and where did you find it? If you took TC classes, I'm assuming that you found those to be deficient as well.

    Look guys; I appreciate the replies but I'm not going to take person X's word over person Y's. All of these arguments mean nothing to me or anyone else new to this debate unless someone actually takes the time to explain their experiences and/or the supposed deficiencies of wah lum as compared to other kung fu styles so that I may be left to draw my own conclusions.

    I realize that it might be painful to relate the whole story, and that it might cause you to be flamed by some diehards but it's really the only way you stand a chance of convincing me... or anyone else for that matter.

    I'll try to do my own independant research, but if I know what to look for it will be that much easier. Remember, I am very much a newbie to the MA scene.
    Last edited by Lode Runner; 02-15-2002 at 05:42 PM.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    1,994
    Oh dear.. it seems that i may have been mis-understood..
    I did not intend imply that "no one else has it in their hearts to become a master".. nor do i believe that no one will be brought to master level..
    The implication is that too many expect maximum returns on minimum investments.. Master Chan can and likely has trained people to the levels of others that have called themselves masters.. I believe a few have been handed the "keys to the kingdom" already, they simply chose the wrong door, in many cases the door out.. "Master" is not a title on a certificate, it is recognition for achievement.. i have never personally heard Master Chan claim the title, but.. love him or hate him, he is known by all as "Master", even GrandMaster..

    Master Chan doesn't come out and say today is master training day.. too often the lessons are lost in their simplicity.. how often have any of you that have trained with this Man realized hours, days, or even longer.. the real lesson hidden in some seemingly simple correction.. some seemingly hap-hazard remark.. some seemingly demeaning criticism.. i know i have..

    Yes, even the most promising fall by the wayside, the lessons were interpreted poorly.. the price in wounded egos, too high.. i understand that i am on shaky ground in some areas, lately (and i am far from the most promising).. but, i would rather be booted by the best than coddled by the mediocre.. Please understand, "the best" is a category of real Masters, not a reference designed to start another round of comparisons.. My time at the Temple has helped make me who i am today, to throw stones at that is to throw stones at myself.. whatever anyone walks away from the temple with.. is more than they had when they first arrived.. it is a shame to see the gifts go unrecognized, unappreciated..

    be well, all.. (its ALL good, seen in the right light)
    TaiChiBob.. "the teacher that is not also a student is neither"

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    629
    Lode Runner,
    I can answer your question by telling you a story I was told by one of the people I learned from, still my friend. He had a MA companion who trained every day by pushing a tree trunk from one side of his back yard to the other. He got into a horse stance and with both palms along with breathing and mind intent, pushed the tree trunk. Then walked forward, got into a horse stance and repeated. He did this every day from one side of his back yard and back. One day while my teacher and his friend was out walking they were confronted by two attackers. In a single move my teacher's friend stepped forward and pressed his palms into the two attackers chests sending them flying. My teacher told me the two had hand prints of his friend on their chests.

    In the case of MC, a student was once 'touched' by MC on his chest that, for some time, paralyzed that side of his chest/arm which leads me to believe MC has trained his qi. This was a second hand story to me which I didn't see for myself.

    I have learned an exercise called noi gung which is similar in description to one of the exercises posted in another thread (praying mantis qi gong) which also develops these types of skills. I never seen it but I heard MC demonstrated 10 Fong Fingers and by the description it sounds similar to the noi gung exercise in principle.

    Yes, I feel the Taiji classes at WL are 'empty' because (unless this has changed) they are not allowed to practice qi gong.

    If you really want to learn and not pulling our chains, research qi gong (yang jwang ming has some books), research Chinese Medicine (there are many good books from redwing), and think about what you want as an end result. There is so much out there it's increadible but a good teacher can recognize an @ss coming a mile away. Be one with yourself, be up front and truthful. No BS. Make sure your own house is in order before visiting another.

    HTH

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •