Fencing

[TenTigers]

I have a set of Toledo foils, masks and vests, which were my students' grandfather's. They must be almost a hundred years old. The vests are quilted with a red leather heart sewn on them. The foils have leather handgrips. They should be in a museum or on display.
Of course, I had to fence with them....
I also polished off my late grandfathers' 1897 cognac-hand blown bottle..I made Brandy Alexandrs with them...

[GeneChing]

If a blade doesn't flex, it's too brittle and will snap. This is a great misconception about modern swords, as people don't hit them against each other anymore.

The modern epee and foil is just like the historic ones, save for the button. Back when I used to work at American Fencers, we sharpened epees and ran them through plywood. The saber is much skinnier, so it's not quite the same.

David Jamieson: It's actually pretty easy to find crappy blades. China-made fencing blades were notorious for a long time, but I've heard that they are much better now. There's no machine to temper blades - it's still all done by hand - so a veteran fencer will pick through the stacks to find good steel. By Paul, do you mean Leon Paul? I personally never cared for Leon Paul equipment. I always leaned to the German-made stuff like Uhlmann and Allstar. Mind you, I haven't fenced in years and the market has changed considerably.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If a blade doesn't flex, it's too brittle and will snap. This is a great misconception about modern swords, as people don't hit them against each other anymore.

The modern epee and foil is just like the historic ones, save for the button. Back when I used to work at American Fencers, we sharpened epees and ran them through plywood. The saber is much skinnier, so it's not quite the same.

David Jamieson: It's actually pretty easy to find crappy blades. China-made fencing blades were notorious for a long time, but I've heard that they are much better now. There's no machine to temper blades - it's still all done by hand - so a veteran fencer will pick through the stacks to find good steel. By Paul, do you mean Leon Paul? I personally never cared for Leon Paul equipment. I always leaned to the German-made stuff like Uhlmann and Allstar. Mind you, I haven't fenced in years and the market has changed considerably.

I am aware that they have to flex, the degree of flex is still far more in a sport foil or epee than a "practical" rapier or straight sword.
Of course if you sharpen a foil or epee they can pierce, they are still tempered steel.
Take a practical rapier and dull it and put a "button" on it and try fencing with it, you will see the difference.
Far more ridgid and less forgiving.
I am not taking anything away from the danger of a foil or epee that has been modified to be practical, but that is NOT what we are talking about.
The fact that the blade GIVES as much as it does to NOT penetrate the chest guard is significant.

[Lucas]

would those competition blades break or shatter if struck against a live combat blade?

[sanjuro_ronin]

would those competition blades break or shatter if struck against a live combat blade?

A blade will shatter if hit incorrectly ( or correctly depending on your point of view).
The more flexable the LESS chance of breaking.

[GeneChing]

Look at the 18th and 19th century foils and epees. The blades are not significantly different in terms of flexibility. I've seen colichemardes with more flex than some FIE foil blades. Foil and epee are point weapons, not necessarily edged, so you don't really parry in the same way. Blades do break in competition. That's actually the most dangerous part of the sport. But you wouldn't parry a 'live combat blade' in quite the same manner as it's point work, not edge work.

I studied with a pupil of Aldo Nadi, so yes, I've read On Fencing. In fact, the person responsible for the recent reprint of that work, Maestro William Gaugler, was my tutor for my provost d'armes exams.

[Lucas]

man i should take up fencing, sounds like its a lot of fun.

what did you enjoy more kendo or fencing?

[GeneChing]

I fenced a lot more. I was an NCAA athlete and earned a provost master diploma. It's not as martial. It's a sport. But it's a fun sport and the martial applications are so obvious.

I can't remember how far I got in kendo, only a few kyu in to it. But I loved that it was so martial. I dabbled in iaido and batto-jitsu too, as well as a little kobudo, which all complimented kendo so well.

This might sound odd, but even after training in dozens of kung fu weapons, if I really had to fight with a cold arm, I'd choose a sharpened epee if it was to be bloody, and a bokken if it was a less lethal situation.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Look at the 18th and 19th century foils and epees. The blades are not significantly different in terms of flexibility. I've seen colichemardes with more flex than some FIE foil blades. Foil and epee are point weapons, not necessarily edged, so you don't really parry in the same way. Blades do break in competition. That's actually the most dangerous part of the sport. But you wouldn't parry a 'live combat blade' in quite the same manner as it's point work, not edge work.

I studied with a pupil of Aldo Nadi, so yes, I've read On Fencing. In fact, the person responsible for the recent reprint of that work, Maestro William Gaugler, was my tutor for my provost d'armes exams.

I'll give you that, perhaps I am stuck a bit in the rapier/straight sword view and am not giving the "small sword" the merit it deserves.

[David Jamieson]

Gene, there will come a day when we shall meet on the piste! seriously.
I mean, if you want to and there are a couple of foils handy.

The thing that's cool about an epee is that it will penetrate just about anything.
It is of such a design that trench knives were fashioned using it's triangular blade shape.

this was because double edge couldn't always penetrate a thick wool trench coat, but a three sided blade to a point could easily penetrate the heavy trench coats.

here's a cool pic of one:


here's an epee:


three sides goes through all hides.

[Lucas]

ah i see. similar to some bayonet designs.

[Lucas]

I fenced a lot more. I was an NCAA athlete and earned a provost master diploma. It's not as martial. It's a sport. But it's a fun sport and the martial applications are so obvious.

I can't remember how far I got in kendo, only a few kyu in to it. But I loved that it was so martial. I dabbled in iaido and batto-jitsu too, as well as a little kobudo, which all complimented kendo so well.

This might sound odd, but even after training in dozens of kung fu weapons, if I really had to fight with a cold arm, I'd choose a sharpened epee if it was to be bloody, and a bokken if it was a less lethal situation.

ive been thinking more and more about fencing. its got me very interested. do you know of any resources to find a creditable school? I try google...alot to filter since its mostly about fence building companies.

[Lucas]

i guess maybe scratch that I found a source:
http://www.oregonfencing.com/

looks like mostly for children as far as their scheduling, and the adult classes are kind of out there. im going to keep looking for something in the city itself....has to be something.

[David Jamieson]

i guess maybe scratch that I found a source:
http://www.oregonfencing.com/

looks like mostly for children as far as their scheduling, and the adult classes are kind of out there. im going to keep looking for something in the city itself....has to be something.

http://usfencing.org/oregon-clubs

here's a couple more.

if you go olympic it is still great sport but the electronic point system truly effects the style.

If you learn a more traditional way, you will likely get exposed to more actual practical use of the blade, but you never know, it's up to you and I'm pretty sure that olympic style coaches know the traditional ways.

there is also non-linear schools, such as spanish school or portugese style which do not use piste and are far more free in what you can do. Even to the point of using dagger and rapier together, which I gotta say, is hella cool.

I can't help you in sourcing anything reliable in that area though.

[Lucas]

dude that sounds awesome!!! definately going to have to look into that. I would be more interested in more practical use, but any style training would be good at the beginner stage I'm sure.

thanks for that resource site though, looks pretty helpful. a few of those sites look somewhat close to me.

dude as i was typing this a client came in and i happend to mention to my co worker the studio of american fencing in town and the client says ' i helped found that, i wrote their 501 c3' i was like HELL YA this was meant to be.

thanks for the hook up bro