Ride the tiger overturn the chariot(alternate app)

[Tainan Mantis]

I'm visiting Mantis108 this week.
Last month on another thread I talked about the alternate app for move #13 in 7* bung bu.

This application is not related to this form, but when I asked my teacher why it has this name he showed me an overturn the body technique.

The app shown in WHF book is also how we do it in our 2 man form.

Note:
After Robert parries the elbow strike I follow the motion of his push and stick my head and right arm under his right arm. My right hand grabs a hunk of flesh as shown in the pic.

For the move to work he must be pushed off balance by me before I can uproot him.

Fan Che Shr

On a related note, he has posted picks of taking me down on his TJPM forum.

[Stacey]

Tainan..was that you?

Anyway, the guy on the left looks great. The guy on the right looks more like a beginner. Still, cool app. I havent seen that exact one, I have seen others that follow the same into of the passed off elbow.

You should write some articles for a magazine. Your stuff is good enough and you know more than a lot of people that grace the magazines.

[Tainan Mantis]

I am Tainan Mantis's wife. I am delighted to see these pictures of him, since he has been away to visit Mantis 108 for a week, and my son and I both miss him.
Look great, Hunny. Keep up the good work. And post more pics!

[Stacey]

umm... Hi Mrs. Mantis, do you practice as well? Are you two originally Mei Gua ren? Just curious. If you are Wy gua ren, then how did you find yourselves in Taipei?

Just curious

[Tainan Mantis]

Stacey,
Not all real masters look like the masters in the movies (some do though). If you judge someone by their looks or stature you may miss a chance to train with someone of high skill and knowledge(you probably already know that, right?).

It is better to judge a teacher by his students(his students are impressive).
One of his students is a bouncer and was showing me the techniques he had used in the bar to deal with the tough guys.

On Mantis108 forum he is doing the takedown on me from TJPM ground fighting.

I am mei guo ren, Mrs M is Taiwan ren. I came to Tainan to study PM with Shr Zheng Zhong in 1989.

Before that I studied Wah Lum and several sport MA for 7 years.

[Stacey]

that guy in the picture is your Master? Ok, sorry, I figured your Master would be tossing you around. No offense intended.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I just have 2 questions that If you would could you please answer.

1. When performing that throw are you sweeping the foundation leg as well?

2. How is (tiao) used? I always have understood that tiao means single leg lift.
Thanks

[Tainan Mantis]

Stacey,
The man in the pic with me is my friend Mantis108. I am visiting him in Canada. My Shr fu, Shr Zhengzhong, is in Taiwan

ED,
I didn,t catch his leg when I did the throw. But If you can catch his leg he will have a nastier .

I am doing this throw as he is running away and so it is good to be able to do the throw without a leg catch.

I assume you probably learned a similar one in shuai jiao?

Tiao: Every school has different meanings. By itself it merely means to lift.

Actually I am doing go-lo-tsai, but that wouldn't be clear and easy to understand in pictures. So the tiao becomes the go of the go-lo grab.

[flem]

tainan

no offense intended, but how does that move counter the attack- i mean what keeps you from going down, the flesh grab? if so, i do not think it takes into consideration adrenaline, or the fact that his weight would/should make it nearly impossible to lift him. also, though i do not know the tech, my initial response would be to go down with him, on top of his back.

[Jack Squat]

Tainan-

What's the URL for mantis108's website?

Thanks!

Jack

[EARTH DRAGON]

You are correct, the throw resmbles that of Ma Bou Ti but the tiao that I was asking about also means lift but sometimes paired with leg or arm. As in the throw bung Tiao which is to lock the arm in a crossing pattern (bung) and then step into a crossing leg while you lift thier leg (tiao)

Thanks for the clarification........

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
I'm afraid I can't do justice to your question on a written forum.
Maybe it isn't clear that I am the attacker while Robert is merely defending and not attacking.
The technique is not one I made up and I have seen this type of technique in other styles that specialize in throws and takedowns.

Most Northern styles have some techniques where the opponent is picked up and body slammed.
True, it takes a lot of strength to do that, but a lot of throws seem illogical until you have done them for a long time.

On a related note, at Wang Lang's temple in Lao Shan sits his "rock lock". According to my teacher it is very heavy(he went there and lifted it) and realized that WL was a very strong man.

Jack,
I'll let Mantis108 answer that as I don't know.

[flem]

tainan

isn't the throw in response to him going to your body? if so, i was saying at real speed his momentom might/should leave most of your weight on your rear leg- a difficult position in which to lift from.

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
1.he comes to me with a punch
2. I collide into him with my block and elbow strike
3.He avoids the elbow strike by turning his body and parrying
4. I follow the momentum I have generated and also the energy of his push to pass under his right arm.

Note:
I can only perform this technique if he has a specified response to my elbow strike. Therefore there are several techniques I can perform after the elbow strike besides the one in the picture.

You are correct in saying that my application could go wrong. This is when he performs a-
1.escape
2.reversal

When he learns the escape and reversal we start the drill for this technique.

This thread is not meant to teach a technique(not possible in pics), only to show an alternate app for fan che of 7* beng bu

[Young Mantis]

Tainan,

Nice job with the pics. I guess you really do have a lot of time on your hands.

Although your pics are very clear in stepping through that particular application, I fail to see how it resembles the "kua fu fan che" move from Bung Bo. You do say that your application is an alternate application and not the one taught in the form, but then you also then continue to refer to it as being from Bung Bo.

I do believe that there are many techniques that can share the same name, in this case, very clearly you have shown an application for "kua fu fan che" which is very different from the one taught in Bung Bo. If you were to call it an alternate application of "kua fu fan che", I would not have any comments. But when you refer to it as an alternate app of "kua fu fan che" from #13 of Bung Bo, then I have to make comments.

I am a traditionalist. I believe strongly in maintaining the integrity of the forms as they were passed down by each generation. I do this to respect my sifu and my ancestors of the style. I am also all for experimentation of techniques and applications because without this, the system would become stagnant. But I would never derive a new variation application for a movement taught in a form, and then claim it to be from that said form.

This of course is just my own personal attitude towards the forms.

YM