WT, To stay or to go ?

[AdrianUK]

Hi all

This thread is aimed at senior WT guys or ex WT guys (Sihing73?) , at the moment I am in the EWTO but my instructor has left quoting the extended syllabus, misinformation etc as reasons to go. So now I am in a dilemma do I stay with my teacher and his methods or stay with the organisation ? At the moment I am feeling that my progress is hindered within the association by not being shown all the material until I have mastered the more basic moves and paid to grade higher, so all you high grades out there, was it worth the wait? As I say I am not allowed to even see the higher material so I want some honest opinions on the system (no comments about Kernspecht etc please)

Thanks

[jesper]

First of I will presume you are in a legimet WT studio.

My comment may sound a little harsh, but bear with me for a moment ok

What do you mean you are not allowed to see the more advanced stuff, all you have to do is look at your instructors sparring.

Are you complaining that you are not being taught the more advanced stuff, then ask yourself why.
It will not do you any good to learn anyway since you are not ready to use it yet

Or is it because your former teachers words has left you a little lost as to the effectivenes of WT contra other VT/WC lineages.
They are all good, its the individual teacher who counts.

Remember that WT training is very formal, You go from point A to B to C. And a lot of people like it that way. It brings structure and a security that nothing will be left out.
Other Lineages choose to train differently and more informal, that is ok too if you like that better

It all boils down to what is good for you, and in the end nobody can decide that for you. So if you feel insecure, try to shop around and see if you can find a better place for you to train. Or talk to your teacher and tell him about your feelings, if he is a good teacher he will be able to explain his methods for you, so you will feel more secure in your progres. Because in the end if your not happy where you train, you will eventually quit altogether, which will benefit nobody.

Whatever you decide, I wish good luck


OH and one final note, the longer you train the more back to basic you get.
Its ironic but you will se what I mean eventually

[AdrianUK]

Thanks Jesper

When I say I am not allowed to see higher material I mean literally. The instructor sessions are closed shop and at seminars they are in a different room. I am in a legitimate WT school (NWTO in the UK) and they are following the ruling that its not when you are good enough but when you have paid for the next grade that you are shown the next level (by the way grades are £55 a time here how does that compare ?). I would like to be in the situation where my progress is not determined by paying to prove what I know (surely my instructor should know I am ready without taking formal tests) , but if the higher material is good enough then I will swallow it and pay. So is the higher material going to make a huge difference or is it more a case of better sensitivity ? As I say for all I know I have seen all the formal techniques and its just practice and time, but since no one will tell unless you grade how can I know ?

So back to you guys !

[Sihing73]

Hello AdrianUK,

Without getting into a political quagmire here is my take on this;

You indicated that your instructor has opted to remove himself from affiliation with the organization. Irregardless of his reasons you must now decide to stay with him or with the org.

I have found that it is often better to associate with the individual rather then an organization per se. If you have enjoyed your training with your instructor and he has treated you fairly in the past then there is little liklehood that his change in affiliation will alter this.

You have already hinted that you are not happy with the way the organization does things. If this is accurate and you are happy with the training you have received thus far from your isntructor then I would think the choice is already made. Now you simply need to act on it.

I would not be too concerned with not being exposed to the "higher" learning. It is sometimes considered very traditional to not allow higher forms of knowledge to be passed until ready. In some cases, a Sifu would not even explain things but would show something only once or twice and then it was up to the student to get it. Not saying this is the case but that is a possibility. Usually the witholding of knowledge would fall into one of two catagories.

1) Marketting or money making. I don't think this really requires an explanation. Seems like you have already hinted at this reason being a possibility.

2) The refinement of basic skills and insuring quality rather than quantity. Too often people do not put in the required time and effort to master something and instead will try to move on before they are ready to the more "advanced" things. What many fail to realize is that a firm grounding in the basics will often defeat a less firm foundation no matter how many "advanced" techniques on has. Yip Man was once quoted as saying something to the extent that the SNT and footwork of the CK were enough to defeat almost all opponents. (Not an exact quote btw )

I left WT because I was tired of some of the things that went on. However, this is not a reflection on the system itself. My reasons were personal and not based on any failings in the system. Since leaving I have had the opportunity to explore other methods and I believe I have found some changes which were well suited for me personally. No doubt as I continue to grow I will find even more variations to try

One last thing, when I left WT I remained with my Sifu Alan Fong for some time. He and I have still spoken on occassion although it has been very rare. My current Sifu, Chung Kwok Chow, and I have known each other for over ten years. Although I do not do Wing Chun exactly the same way as Sifu Chow, I have grown as a result of his guidence. Organizations, IMO, often fail the individual needs as there is an agenda which may not have the best needs of student a in mind but rather focuses on the needs of the many. But, do not mistake this as my saying that organizations are bad. They are not! A well run organization can provide sound structure and guideance.

My point being that if you find a good instructor whom you are comfortable with you should stick with them.

Peace,

Dave

[Roy D. Anthony]

ADRIAN,
Money sometimes isn't the issue. e.g. Ip Man charged seperately for Mook Jong lessons which were deemed as private classes.
( wonder where the claim of studying pivately with Ip Man came from...*S*), therefore this structure is not strange to the Wing Chun System.

However, you also only have one Sifu. Ip Man had 2 sifu's....sort of..... Chan Wah Soon his first Sifu, then Leung Bik...his second Sifu. However, he always called Chan Wah Soon his Sifu, and Leung Bik as his Si Bat.

[chi sau]

where abouts in surrey do you train?
i train with a similar organisation to you but less closed minded and definately cheaper but i dont want to get into politics etc

[Sec]

AdrianUK, as you said. "At the moment I am feeling that my progress is hindered within the association by not being shown all the material until I have mastered the more basic moves"
To me that says it all.

[yuanfen]

No lineage disputes intenteded.
FWIW-
my own rules of thumbs are as follows:
1. in kung fu- find the best teacher that you can find.

2. Your good fortune, if its a wing chun teacher.

3. Between an unsatisfactory wing chun learning situation and an
available good teacher in another good TCMA take the latter.
Better to become a good wing chun person than a choi li fut person. But better to be a good choy li fut or hung gar person
than a mediocre wing chun stylist. Good teachers do make a difference.

4. Assuming human decency- there is no substitute for excellence.


5. Good teachers deserve their tuition and they may have a curriculum- but mere money changers-
drive em from the temple!

[AdrianUK]

Well to clarify the situation a little, I trained with 2 different teachers in the same organisation, one concentrates on correct form and one concentrates on fighting practicality, I enjoyed both. Now one has split and I suspect that (been told by one teacher) I will have political problems training with both. But I have decided to do just that and if I am expelled for doing so I will make sure to tell everyone on here how they treat me !

As for where in surrey I am chi sau, I am in reigate near Gatwick airport, which style are you in ?

"Politics ?, I don need no stinking politics!"

[chi sau]

hello adrian
i train in nick smarts organisation
i think i see your problem with the political side of things .
its a shame that politics constantly gets in the way of training
i hope you can work out your problems with your two teachers
let me know how things work out
take it easy

[AdrianUK]

SEC

Read the whole sentance. master the basic moves AND PAY TO GRADE, its the second bit that rubs me up especially at £55 a grade

EVERYONE ELSE

After much thinking I enjoy the classes of the 2 instructors so I am doing both for now and ignoring the politics

[Sec]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
SEC

Read the whole sentance. master the basic moves AND PAY TO GRADE, its the second bit that rubs me up especially at £55 a grade

EVERYONE ELSE

After much thinking I enjoy the classes of the 2 instructors so I am doing both for now and ignoring the politics

I read what you said, you said you feel you are being held back untill you can master the more basic moves, this is for a good reason even if you were shown the most advanced techniques would you understand how to use them if your still working on basic stuff??
As far as paying £55 per grade maybe you should talk to your Sifu about this, how many hours are you getting for £55, how many instructors are there to help you with your grading? I'm not trying to argue but think about what you get for £55.. If your not happy still then you know what to do

[Ish]

£55 for a grading seems imensly high to me. I don't know what anyone else pays but where i train you can do graidings for £6 but even then you don't have to da a grading to continue to learn new stuff. I have never done any grades and have never been asked to. The only reason i don't want any grades is because i dont want to be working towards the next grade i want to be improving what i need most not whats needed for the grading.

[Big Vern]

hello, i would reiterate sihing 73's reply, i believe the energy of wing chun comes from the the individual u spend most time learning from, this is normally your regional instructor. yes, train with his seniors and master, but never forget your first exposure was with your instructor, and he is qualified to wander.
obediance to the law is only freedom for the lawmakers.
by the way the average price of UK wing chun gradings is only £15.