Kung Fu in UFC or Pride?

[Leonidas]

Uh yea, the point of the post is that even though there may be an ultimate style(for now), theres no possible way to find out which one it is, for a number fo reasons. The skill level, the fighters genetics, the rules, the terrain, the teacher, to something as seemingly unimportant as the persons diet. It is meaningless if a person is happy with what they study and is not looking to become the ultimate martial arts killing machine-(I for one am not). I once didn't totally buy into the all styles being created equal argument, but it 's up to the practitioner to fix the weaknesses so it's absurd in that sense, since all styles are always evolving anyway.

[friday]

just a few questions:

are we allowed to use claw strikes? such as tigers claw? ying jow pai claw techniques?
are we allowed to use pressure point strikes? throat, eye strikes etc?

just curious...but i believe these sorts of techniques aren't allowed in UFC etc.
dunno what impact this sort of thing would have...

[Yung Apprentice]

If someone is arguing that Kung Fu is inefective based on MMA matches. Another way to look at things, is boxers don't always come out victorious in these matches. But then again it's not like these boxers are the Roy Joneses and the Tysons ot Mayweatherses etc. Truth is Kung Fu has nothing to prove. It's been around for thousands of years. Bjj just sprang up. It has to prove itself. Which it has in many aspects. But to base your opinion on a couple of fighters, that aren't exactly the cream of the crop, well thats just ignorant. One should always have respect for ANY Ma, because they all have there strengths and weaknesses.

[CrushingFist]

archangel, in an earlier post you were arguing with earthdragon that the reason KF doesn't do ground fighting is their own fault and from their training methods, i agree, but you said something i don't agree with:

"Striking Only Venue

A) Striker is still able to utilize all of his weapons and not be limited at all

b) Grappler has lost his most important range and now has to play the strikers game, not because of the inadequacies of his art but because of the rules.

"

Part B, grappler has lost his most important range. Isn't that a fault of the grappler for not practicing standup fighting enough? that is the exactly same thing, one system, KF, doesn't practicing ground fighting enough, the other system, whatever grappling system, doesn't practice standup enough. It's a similar, but not exactly the same situation. anyways, i know it's not exactly the same because the standup guy still has his best moves while the grappler doesn't, but "Thats a result of his training and methods" . but anyways, KF style ppl are limited whent hey go into those tournaments too, because if you look at it, kung fu was meant to fight and kill/maim your oppenent at quickly as possible. it should be used only for self defense now-adays, but a lot of systems weren't back in THE DAYS. they can't use eye gouges, groin and throat shots, certain pressure point grabs, etc...and some styles like tiger, eagle, mantis, rely heavily on those.

and oh yah, all the "KF masters" who enter those fights, i'd never considered one of those guys a "master" but i do consider the gracies "masters of BJJ" so, your kinda pitting the crazy ppl out for blood, fame, personal gain, fun, against masters of grappling.

It's like having a bunch of BJJ fighters go into a boxing ring in thailand, they'll get the poop knocked out of them, and everyone will say it's crappy and of course thaiboxing is #1, but the BJJ fighters who would go fight thaiboxers in thailand are the "crazy, out for personal gain, blood, etc etc" ppl, while the thaiboxers are pros, who have mastered their art.

bottom line, looking at the KF in UFC matches doesn't do KF enough justice because they aren't really masters of their art.
anyone who thinks that, needs to go to chinatown and challege a few guys haha.

[Budokan]

Why don't you ever see a mouse come out on top in a cat fight? What's up with that? Is the mouse less than the cat? This should be investigated.

I'm also wondering why you never see a 42-year old man with a boiler winning a cross-country marathon or an iron man contest. Sounds like a conspiracy to me. That also should be investigated.

BoxerChik = c*nt stain = troll = Rolls.

Go home, fella, and back to your mid-afternoon flogging of your meat whistle. Leave KFO to the adults.

[fightfan]

"are we allowed to use claw strikes? such as tigers claw? ying jow pai claw techniques?
are we allowed to use pressure point strikes? throat, eye strikes etc? "

All of those things have been attempted and while a couple were effective, none of them finished a fight.
To put it simply so you can get a better idea why; those techniques wont work on a standing opponent simply because theres no way in he11 hes going to sit there and take it without moving, hitting back, or worse for you, taking you down.
On the ground; anytime you extend your arm for any reason in any position your are either opening something up or begging for a arm lock. Some of those may work from a dominant position(top) but the beuty of the fight is the constant struggle of gaining that position on your opponent and if you dont know how, forget it.
Dont get me wrong, I like kung fu for what its worth, but there are just too many valid reasons to crosstrain. I dont have a hidden agenda like some that trash a style might have. I dont run a school and personally I wouldnt try to get my point across to you guys if I didnt think some of you guys were cool.
Good training to you all.

[Archangel]

Leonidas,

There is no such thing as an ultimate martial art, well I haven't seen it at least. But that is the reason that you crosstrain, so you can fill the holes that your art is missing.


Crushing Fist,

I agree that a grappler should learn striking, That is the very basis of MMA. That was not the issue I was debating with Earth, we were talking about the fairness of each competition to the respective fighters.

There again is a big difference here. When the striker is put into a MMA arena, all of his weapons are still there; he can use anything in his arsenal.

When a grappler is put in a striking only competition, all of his weapons are gone. He is placed in a disadvantage by the RULES.

Again, I really think it is extremely obvious here. An event which allows both striking and grappling is a much better indicator than an event which displays only one.

What if I suggested that a Kung Fu fighter enter a grappling only tournament? Does that answer your question?

[Leonidas]

All i can say is reread the post........

[Archangel]

I re-read both of them, what is "combat" wrestling

[red_fists]

Question:

Wasn't UFC started by the gracies??

I still want to see some BJJ or some of those tough nternet fighters enter the K1 Tournaments in Japan.

Hey Boxerchick, Ralek, Tinman, Budokan any of you game for the K1??

You talk the big talk, how about waddling the walk??

Seeya.

[Leonidas]

In a nutshell its Freestyle Wrestling with Brazilian "wrestling" or BJJ submission moves. Wrestling has its own set of submission moves. What you would call Catchwrestling or "hooking" but i don't think many people practice that any more. Some say it's superior to BJJ but i've seen neither in action so i'll just leave it at that.

[Ryu]

Uhhhhhh I don't think you meant to include Budokan in there with the trolls .... he's actually a very respectable poster that I admire on the board.

Ryu

[red_fists]

Ryu.

He was added as he is already on my "ignore " list.

Sorry, don't like his posting style.

[Knifefighter]

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Wasn't UFC started by the gracies??
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Rorion Gracie was the one of the originators of the UFC. The objective of the first UFC’s was to pit different fighting styles against each other in a one-on-one fight to determine which style was most effective in this scenario. These types of fights had been going on in Brazil for many years. The rules were not set up to favor either grapplers or strikers. The idea was to have as few rules as possible and still allow the fighters to walk away without a high probability of permanent injuries or death.

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There is no way to 'prove' the 'my style is better than your style' issue,
because it is an absurd and meaningless problem. Anyone considering the performance
of others to justify their own methods is allready looking in the wrong place.
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I disagree. I might look at the performance of practitioners of different styles to determine what might be of value to me. For instance, I wouldn’t want to take Karate to learn the intricacies of groundfighting (unless it was Fetal Fighting I wanted to learn), just as I wouldn’t take BJJ to learn to work knees and elbows in a clinch. I can watch the practitioners of different styles to determine which ones are better in the aspects that I want to learn.


The problem I have with styles that "have nothing to prove" is that they truly never do prove anything one way or the other, so you never know. Practitioners of styles that "have something to prove" are out there doing just that, all the time. A person only has to watch the countless examples of them to determine at what they are good. I know BJJ guys are great on the ground, Sambo has good leg locks, wrestlers are awesome with takedowns, Muay Thai guys are artists with knees and elbows in the clinch, and that boxers can throw and take a mean punch.

[Braden]

I didn't say styles were meaningless. I didn't say there's no way of investigating what other people are doing.

I said if you're trying to determine the value of what YOU are doing, there's only one place to look.

I'm not sure how a style can have something to prove.