Youknowwho and others please comment

[lkfmdc]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...1&notif_t=like

so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

[jimbob]

I enjoy watching you teach Dave and was bummed when i was in NYC last summer and wasn't able to drop in (wife had a ruptured disk - was veeerry slow going and needed help...).

Are you asking what we think about your interpretation of this movement as show in the clip (makes perfect sense), or are you asking in general what we think about multiple interpretations of a movement within a form? (which also makes sense some of the time).

I don't necessarily think that every move in a form is hidden. I DO think that things have become so obscured by people not understanding what they're doing that multiple interpretations are now par for the course.

honestly - I think people first trained with partners - just as we see in your clip. When they had no-one to train with they probably mimicked the movements in the air as best they could. Maybe someone at some stage thought this was the super important secret part of the training, passed down the importance of form (instead of partner work) and we have the misguided focus on forms work we see today.

Along the way, those students became teachers, their students started teaching, each person's ego demands they leave their own little contribution and voila - multiple interpretations, many of them ludicrous, especially when the teacher has never been in a fight.

Have you seen some of the 'single whip' interpretations out there?

[lkfmdc]

I enjoy watching you teach Dave and was bummed when i was in NYC last summer and wasn't able to drop in (wife had a ruptured disk - was veeerry slow going and needed help...).

Sorry to hear that, hope she is ok

Are you asking what we think about your interpretation of this movement as show in the clip (makes perfect sense), or are you asking in general what we think about multiple interpretations of a movement within a form? (which also makes sense some of the time).

I open the floor to both discussions....

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities

And, of course, in the broader scheme of things, what are forms and what do they have to teach us.......

I don't necessarily think that every move in a form is hidden. I DO think that things have become so obscured by people not understanding what they're doing that multiple interpretations are now par for the course.

I don't know if "hidden" is the right word... obscured? oh definitely, we see some horrible applications, applications that defy common sense at times

A two person drill is explicit, forms are not... is this a positive or a negative or just a cautionary tale?

Have you seen some of the 'single whip' interpretations out there?

I have seen a lot on that....

[Faux Newbie]

In agreement with Jimbob.

I think one thing that works for and against those able to access more classical sources is that, if one accepts problems with interpretations now, what period and source should be accepted as not having the same problems? Written documents cannot be guaranteed to represent all the best martial arts and ideas from earlier periods, so these sources would likely have errors or omissions as well. Even sources decrying the fakes of their day likely had their own biases and face to think of.

It's good to study these sources, but defining all practices by them could prove problematic.

I've always liked that throw.

[MightyB]

so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

Yes - it happens all the time.

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I sometimes don't know what to think about forms.

[sanjuro_ronin]

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so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

In Karate we have bunkai which are the "typical" application of the forms and then we have "himitsu" which are the "hidden" applications.
Many moves are throws and sweeps as opposed to strikes and such.
Especially in Okinawan styles.
That said, I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.

[YouKnowWho]

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities...

That move in your clip is called "擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift". David C, K. Lin is very good at it. He could use it to lift up a 300 lb guys and stand on single leg. The 1st time he did to his 300 lb student, it scared that student big time.

When GM Han did his Tantui form, did he think about this move? If we look at this clip, it seems to me that his "intention" is not in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcC...ature=youtu.be

I like to look for "intent". A pulling and a punching will have different "intent" when you train solo drill even if your leg may perform exactly the same move.

[YouKnowWho]

I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.

Sometime we may give too much credit to the original form creator that he doesn't deserve. Here is one of my favor jokes.

A: Dear master, in the middle of your form, you rotate your hip followed by a smile on your face. Is that one of your training secret? Are you willing to share it?
B: Sorry! I just far*ed

[lkfmdc]

When GM Han did his Tantui form, did he think about this move? If we look at this clip, it seems to me that his "intention" is not in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcC...ature=youtu.be

I like to look for "intent". A pulling and a punching will have different "intent" when you train solo drill even if your leg may perform exactly the same move.

the move you posted is punch and OPPOSITE side lift leg, this I agree with, I do NOT think it is the same movement ... in my example, punch and lift SAME SIDE leg...

So you think there is no throwing in long fist styles?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In Karate we have bunkai which are the "typical" application of the forms and then we have "himitsu" which are the "hidden" applications.
Many moves are throws and sweeps as opposed to strikes and such.
Especially in Okinawan styles.
That said, I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.

I think this is one of the main reasons for so much dissension in TCMA, there are too many "what ifs" and not enough "this is". However, if a seasoned martial artist can find a different application for a movement, I consider this evolving the art rather than changing it, but that is personal opinion. There are several things such as stances, hand postures, body shifts, ect. found in forms that, when done correctly, can be applied to throws or grappling. Particularly if that person has grappling experience in another art.

If it works, that's all that matters.

[lkfmdc]

I have seen many people "create" the application for the move, rather than the move having been that application.

Sometime we may give too much credit to the original form creator that he doesn't deserve.

of course on both points, but it does seem that throwing, tripping, sweeping and wrestling in general has been lost from our TCMA when it was supposed to be there...

maybe I will film some specific examples later this week

[lkfmdc]

I sometimes don't know what to think about forms.

are they just the product of an illiterate / semi literate culture and outdated by modern circumstances?

[YouKnowWho]

So you think there is no throwing in long fist styles?

Let me put it this way. When I trained the longfist system, my longfist teacher didn't pair us to drill the front cut over and over. To me, it's more important the training method than the "possible" hidden information.

Longfist has some throws such as

- front cut (Tantui #4),
- foot sweep (Mai Fu Chuan #2),
- leg spring (Pao Chuan #3),
- ...

but as far as hip throw, leg lift, leg twist, shoulder throw, ... I haven't be able to find it in the longfist system yet.

May be the "hip throw - mother of all throws" should be a good guideline. If a style has non-body contact throws but don't have body contact throw (such as hip throw), I would say that style is not a throwing system.

By the way, I had asked you the following question in another thread:

"Do you think the WC system has throws in their 3 forms?"

I would like to hear your opinion on this. To prove that all TCMA systems have throw may be difficult. But if we can just find one counter example, we can dis-prove this assumption.

[Dale Dugas]

Wang Shifu,

Are there any neck surrounding/removing the helmet from the head concepts in Zhang Quan?

Also do you see more arm bars/elbow locks/shoulder locks in Zhang Quan?

Thank you.

[YouKnowWho]

Wang Shifu,

Are there any neck surrounding/removing the helmet from the head concepts in Zhang Quan?

Also do you see more arm bars/elbow locks/shoulder locks in Zhang Quan?

Thank you.

There are a lot of locking skill in the longfist system. It even has a special form designed for locking skill training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4LVjwPGhQg

There are also few grip fighting skills in it. But it's just here and there, some random pieces information. It doesn't have a "complete package" to train the throwing art.

As far as I can remember, I can't find "head lock", but I'm sure "helmet remove (horizontal palm strike)" is hidden somewhere in the form.