Hi LFJ,

Thank you for continuing our stimulating conversation!

Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
of course they themselves arent it, but if a teacher has not at least tasted their nature, how can they point toward "it"? and if a student does not have such good roots, how can they know "all things come from mind, and therefore point to mind"?
There is nothing that is not IT. All phenomena are IT. All phenomena are Buddha Mind therefore all phenomena point to Buddha Mind! No teacher is necessary, yet all teachers, even the incompetent ones demonstrate Buddha Nature whether they do so intentionally or not.

Master Chih says, “All behaviors and activities are enlightenment.” – Tun-huang texts, Record III, #87

“Mind is the Buddha, while the cessation of conceptual thought is the Way.” - The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Wan Ling Record, #2

Master Hung says: “All behavior and activity are Thusness. Seeing forms and hearing sound are also Thusness. In fact, all dharmas are Thusness… If you understand the Thusness of all dharmas, then you are a Tathagata. The sutra says: ‘Sentient beings are Thusness. Worthies and sages are also Thusness. All dharmas are also Thusness.’” – Tun-huang texts, Record III, #73

“Enter deeply into it [Buddha-Nature], in all its fullness, by awakening to it yourself. That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete.

It is pure Mind, which is the source of everything…– The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #8

“He who, without relying one the teaching of a master, sees Dharma from events is called one of sharp abilities. He who understands from the spoken teachings of a master is called one of dull abilities. – Tun-huang texts, Record I, #24

“It is wrong to insist that without the advice of the pious and learned we cannot obtain liberation.” – Hui-neng

“…the Way of the Buddhas is as dangerous to you as the way of demons...Those who seek Dharma must not seek from the Buddha, nor from the Dharma, nor from the Sangha. They should seek from nowhere. When the Buddha is not sought, there is no Buddha to be found! When the Dharma is not sought, there is no Dharma to be found! When the Sangha is not sought, there is no Sangha to be found!” - The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Wan Ling Record, #9

When one conceives the “need” for a teacher one creates obstruction to direct perception of Buddha Mind!

“’Buddha’ and ‘sentient beings’ are both your own false conceptions. It is because you do not know real Mind that you delude yourselves with such objective concepts. If you WILL conceive a Buddha YOU WILL BE OBSTRUCTED BY THAT BUDDHA!!! And when you conceive of sentient beings, you will be obstructed by those beings. All such dualistic concepts as ’ignorant’ and ‘Enlightened’, ‘pure’ and impure’ are obstructions.” - The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Wan Ling Record, #5

“Because false views are the same as correct views, the bodhisattva is immobile... and it is unnecessary to reject the false to seek the correct….because it is unnecessary for him to reject the false to enter the correct…" – Tun-huang texts, Record I, #29

“You do not see that THE FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE OF THE DHARMA IS THAT THERE ARE NO DHARMAS, YET THAT THIS DOCTRINE OF NO-DHARMA IS IN ITSELF A DHARMA; AND NOW THAT THE NO-DHARMA DOCTRINE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED, HOW CAN THE DOCTRINE OF THE DHARMA BE A DHARMA?” – The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #36


Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
yes, and who taught the small vehicle doctrine? the buddha. who taught mahayana? the buddha. one who saw his nature. expedient means is only so in the proper hands, unless a student has the capacity to realize by themselves- which is usually one in a million.
Actually "expedient means" is entirely within the eye of the beholder. When any phenomena awakens one to Buddha Mind, or stimulates deeper insight, it is an "expedient means". It need not even come from a teacher, for since all phenomena are Buddha Mind, all phenomena IS the Buddha and all phenomena reflect Buddha. Since we awaken ourselves, it is Buddha awakening Buddha to Buddha. In essence nothing occurs and nothing is attained.

This conversation IS Dharma, this conversation is Buddha Mind playing with Buddha Mind, but no one can GIVE anyone else that realization. Even pointing to it is useless if one is not able to perceive it for themselves. Yet that "not" perceiving it, is the same as perceiving it because Buddha mind does not hold to distinctions.

So as I mentioned to TGY previously, it is "Nothing doing nothing to nothing!" Nothing is gained, nothing is lost, nothing happened, and no one experienced it!

One in a million is an exaggeration for effect, and means it is rare, but also admits it is NOT impossible. However, even if we accepted it as a statistical fact that means there are nearly 7,000 of these individuals alive today!

We should also be very cautious not to take any specific teaching too literally!

“Above all it is essential not to select some particular teaching suited to a certain occasion, and being impressed by its forming part of the written canon, regard it as an immutable concept. Why so? Because in truth there is no unalterable Dharma which the Tathagata could have preached.” – The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #30

“If you only rid yourselves of the concepts of ordinary and Enlightened, you would find there is no other Buddha than the Buddha in your own Mind.” – The Zen Teaching of Huang Po, The Chun Chou Record, #31