Progression without Chi Sao, is it possible?

[YungChun]

Then, you would be incorrect. The further that Bruce went down the path of JKD the less viable he found chi sao and trapping.

Then you heard wrong IMO..

From folks who worked closely with Bruce, including Dan Inosanto and others.. They all confirmed that although he played with lots of stuff, when things got serious he would almost always enter (into close range) and use close range tactics.. (WCK though call it whatever you like.)

Makes perfect sense to me because this is not only the thread that ran though everything he did but it is what he did the longest, it was still his specialty. Now to be clear this doesn't mean he didn't see its (WCK/ChiSao) limitations but it also doesn't mean he tossed it, since he didn't.

This is also supported in part by VIDEO from the Long Beach Nationals where he demonstrated Both JKD AND ChiSao. What this means is that ChiSao made it past his JunFan stage into his JKD (last) stage.. If that doesn't clear this up for you then nothing will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl2vxgCuPXY

Moreover, "trapping" as you call it is one of the ranges included in JKD and accounts for much of the training--including the training he gave to Lewis and Norris. Odd for something you claim he didn't find useful as time went on. The FMA influence in JKD later came from Dan, not Bruce. (see how we often go back to our roots..)

If you have any documentation or other evidence that says otherwise feel free to share.

[t_niehoff]

Grapplers will also train from specific positions and conditions, IOW starting from a particular position of engagement.. And repeating that over and over in order to increase familiarity and focus on those conditions ...

They start from REALISTIC positions, things that occur frequently in fighting. Chi sao is not realistic.

Yes grapplers grapple but often don't strike while grappling.. So there goes your realism I guess eh? So then the training is useless right? LOL

You don't get it. You don't need to put in every single variable to be realistic -- if that were the case, we could never train realistically. As I said, if you want to develop good grappling skill, for example, you do that by realistically grappling, by dealing with an opponent who is genuinely trying to defeat you in grappling and who is genuinely trying to resist you. You don't put in strikes so that you can focus exclusively on developing grappling skills (so you are not developing any striking skills). By so training, you develop realsitic grappling skills, and THOSE skills will work in any realsitic situation. If you want to develop striking skills, then you need to train those realistically.

Again, our focus shouldn't be on preparing for some theoretical, mythical, fantasy "real fight" but instead developing realistic skills that will work in any reaisitic encounter.

This is what ChiSao is doing, it is taking certain conditions that can happen during fighting and recreating those conditions with greater frequency in order to focus on skill development wrt those conditions..

No, chi sao is unrealistic, as your partner is not behaving like a genuinely resisting opponent would -- he is behaving artifically, in (poorly) programmed ways.

The easy way to see this is just to get some partners, start in contact, and fight. You will see that when you do that it doesn't "look" anything like chi sao. When you move in chi sao, you are not responding to or dealing with a person who is acting realistically, so your movement is unrealsitic. You are not developing how to move when fighting but rather how to move when playing chi sao. You may be using the same tools in each (fighting and chi sao) but you are not dealing with the same problems in each.

If you really believe that then I don't think you have ever trained in anything approaching good WCK with ChiSao.. ChiSao is a platform where the student can train various WCK techniques and tactics in a controlled environment. And an environment that is alive, dynamic, where the partner resists and can also involve a partner trying to 'take your head off'...

Whenever your partner is playing chi sao, he is behaving artifically. If you think otherwise, just get some nonWCK partners, start in contact/attached, and fight. Then compare it to your chi sao.

You are right that chi sao permits a student to learn and practice the various WCK tools. The problem is that you are practicing those tools in a manner that in no way "looks like " or corresponds to fighting. When you do chi sao you are dealing with chi sao problems and not fighting problems. And so, you are by doing chi sao practiding the WCK tools wrongly.

[t_niehoff]

Then you heard wrong IMO..

From folks who worked closely with Bruce, including Dan Inosanto and others.. They all confirmed that although he played with lots of stuff, when things got serious he would almost always enter (into close range) and use close range tactics.. (WCK though call it whatever you like.)

This is what Dan told me as well.

[Tom Kagan]

Superhero! Not even close, most of my friends are very adept fighters, but some have not had a real fight in a long time and some never been in a fight there whole life. So yes, it could be me helping out the little guy but the little guy is my friend in thiis case. I would have a watching a friend fight someone twice their size who looks like they will eat tem afterwards. So if that makes me a "Superhero". Then I am.

Wouldn't it be easier to smack some sense into your little friend with the napolean complex than worry about when he'll annoy someone on the football team again?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Then you heard wrong IMO..

From folks who worked closely with Bruce, including Dan Inosanto and others.. They all confirmed that although he played with lots of stuff, when things got serious he would almost always enter (into close range) and use close range tactics.. (WCK though call it whatever you like.)

Makes perfect sense to me because this is not only the thread that ran though everything he did but it is what he did the longest, it was still his specialty. Now to be clear this doesn't mean he didn't see its (WCK/ChiSao) limitations but it also doesn't mean he tossed it, since he didn't.

This is also supported in part by VIDEO from the Long Beach Nationals where he demonstrated Both JKD AND ChiSao. What this means is that ChiSao made it past his JunFan stage into his JKD (last) stage.. If that doesn't clear this up for you then nothing will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl2vxgCuPXY

Moreover, "trapping" as you call it is one of the ranges included in JKD and accounts for much of the training--including the training he gave to Lewis and Norris. Odd for something you claim he didn't find useful as time went on. The FMA influence in JKD later came from Dan, not Bruce. (see how we often go back to our roots..)

If you have any documentation or other evidence that says otherwise feel free to share.

You really need to get out of your fantasy world. If you investigated a bit further, you would know that Bruce lost faith in Chi Sao and trapping after sparring with Kareem Abdul Jabbar. These sparring matches took place after long beach.

The dirty little secret of JKD is that they continue to train trapping in spite of the fact that Bruce lost faith in it. "'Trapping' as [I] call it," is what many people call it, especially if they are involved in JKD, the topic of discussion.

Also, Dan Inosanto is on record as saying that the Jun Fan Boxing (what you probably think is JKD) was just what Bruce wanted taught taught at the schools to have something more palatable to people who had trained in karate points fighting. Jun Fan was quite a bit different from the Kickboxing that Dan and others practiced at Bruce's house.

[Vajramusti]

The family of new hybrid martial arts ranging from Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do to Brazilian Jujitsu and other styles spotlighted in No-Holds Barred matches.

That's the description of the mma forum- a good place to go -the way the thread is developing.
Ah...well.

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

The family of new hybrid martial arts ranging from Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do to Brazilian Jujitsu and other styles spotlighted in No-Holds Barred matches.

That's the description of the mma forum- a good place to go -the way the thread is developing.
Ah...well.

joy chaudhuri

Bruce Lee is the most famous exponent of WC. He is held up as an example of WC's effectiveness. I think that is important to point out his criticism if we are going to try and hold up him as an example of the power of WC.

Edit:
Bruce Lee is an important figure in Martial Arts history. I should add that I do not agree with many of his criticism of TCMA. Moreover, he lived a short life pre-information age. Many of us on this board have access to better information about martial arts and possess more time in martial arts than Bruce Lee. Some of his criticism are outdated or were incorrect at the time.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1002291]Bruce Lee is the most famous exponent of WC. He is held up as an example of WC's effectiveness. I think that is important to point out his criticism if we are going to try and hold up him as an example of the power of WC.

((WE? Who is we? Not me! Not lots of people I know! The forum is not the universe or a good sample thereof..having the same old discussion with 3-4 people on this forum-that's much of what's been happening. But many folks can't give up their net addiction))

joy chaudhuri

[HumbleWCGuy]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1002293]

Bruce Lee is the most famous exponent of WC. He is held up as an example of WC's effectiveness. I think that is important to point out his criticism if we are going to try and hold up him as an example of the power of WC.

((WE? Who is we? Not me! Not lots of people I know! The forum is not the universe or a good sample thereof..having the same old discussion with 3-4 people on this forum-that's much of what's been happening. But many folks can't give up their net addiction))

joy chaudhuri

Allow me to rephrase. If anyone is going to hold up Bruce Lee as an example of WC effectiveness, they must also consider his criticisms.

[YungChun]

You really need to get out of your fantasy world.

Okay "humble"...

I'll just say this..and will no longer respond to your BS.. You have no clue about what you post, you ignore evidence, can't amass any evidence yourself, make sweeping conclusions based on minutia, can't or don't read what folks write; miss the big picture of most topics and you come off like a noob.

You ignore what folks who know (who were actually there) say--and you are certainly not the least bit humble on any level.....

[YungChun]

They start from REALISTIC positions

Realistic from their perspective/style of fighting.. How likely are many of those starting points if their opponent was a MT fighter? What the MT fighter would do is "out of bounds" for their training..

Same thing in WCK training in ChiSao.. Yes some things are "out of bounds"...

The luk sao is only a starting point for positional neutrality.. It is comparable to a grappler's lock up that many use as a starting point, no opponent is going to do that for you..

If you want to develop good grappling skill, for example, you do that by realistically grappling..

And when WCK folks ChiSao and begin the interaction (beyond LukSao) they are actually doing WCK..

And let me be clear:

There is NO DIFFERENCE... Just because you relegate WCK techniques and use thereof to "unrealistic BS" does not make it so.. If two guys go at it in ChiSao (maybe they don't like each other or want to go hard) then once they are past the LukSao what do you think they are doing? Assuming they are trying to punish the opponent..? Hmmm?

For some reason if they start in contact, actually try to hit and control the other, this is "unrealistic" WCK drilling for you..!?!?!? Then all drilling is unrealistic and ChiSao is not special in this regard.

Yes it's a drill.. It is supposed to offer more flexibility..but that's the point of a drill.

by dealing with an opponent who is genuinely trying to defeat you in {snip}

and who is genuinely trying to resist you.

These two elements are present in ChiSao when folks play that way...

And this and the above elements are not something you did in ChiSao? (Y/N)

Oh, wait a minute.. Oh, I see the problem: Both are trying to use WCK so of course it's all BS and useless and unrealistic.. Sure it all makes sense now.. GMAFB!

I mean really.. That's the point of the training, to train WCK, not X..for God's sake.

You don't put in strikes so that you can focus exclusively on developing grappling skills

No $hit?

Sounds like why we don't do take-downs and boxing in ChiSao... But you'd attack that...yet for grappling work it's just dandy.. Seems rather prejudicial.

(so you are not developing any striking skills). By so training, you develop realsitic grappling skills, and THOSE skills will work in any realsitic situation.

Put a grappler only guy in his lockup with an undercover MT guy and then see what happens when the MT guy puts on the necktie and begins kneeing the crap out of the grappler... SURPRISE!!!

A drill of any kind in any method is not fighting.. One is cooperative, one is not.. No cooperative drill is a fight.. No cooperative drill is *realistic* in as much as it is not fighting and is cooperative.

No, chi sao is unrealistic, as your partner is not behaving like a genuinely resisting opponent would -- he is behaving artifically, in (poorly) programmed ways.

See.. For you, behaving like a WCK guy, is not realistic.. That's your problem.. The partner IS acting like a genuinely resisting WCK guy, (from in-contact--remember--where WCK is used) not like a genuinely resisting Boxer, MT guy, Grappler, MMA dude, and so you disqualify the WCK man.. Pretty silly coming from a WCK man....

These kinds of statements from you is akin to bashing your own art.

The easy way to see this is just to get some partners, start in contact, and fight. You will see that when you do that it doesn't "look" anything like chi sao.

Blanket statement.

If you start in contact with anyone there are a million variables.. This statement in not quantifiable and therefore meaningless.

When you move in chi sao, you are not responding to or dealing with a person who is acting realistically

False statement..and prejudicial.

You have automatically labeled anything the WCK guy does as "unrealistic".

That is what you are doing, you are saying here that a WCK man's tools, tactics, actions and reactions are by definition not realistic.. And while that may be true from a Boxer's POV it is not true for WCK's POV, sorry.

Now, that doesn't mean that all ChiSao and players are acting realistic and consistent with WCK it just means that it doesn't mean they aren't, don't or can't either.

so your movement is unrealsitic. You are not developing how to move when fighting but rather how to move when playing chi sao. You may be using the same tools in each (fighting and chi sao) but you are not dealing with the same problems in each.

You need to re-read my post..

While we can adapt tools, techniques and methods;

The tools do not change. The tools are the tools.

The techniques do not change.. The techniques are the techniques.

The conditions that allow our tools/techniques to work do not change. The conditions are the conditions..

This is the point of ChiSao, to train conditioned responses (*attacks* based on position and force. Position and force are generic and ARE what make up the *conditions* that dictate which WCK moves will work under resistance and in the moment.

Just as grapplers will initiate grappler vs grappler in cooperative work using their tools and techniques so do we in ChiSao.. And it can be as realistic (for a drill) as any other drilling in any other art... End of story..

[t_niehoff]

Realistic from their perspective/style of fighting.. How likely are many of those starting points if their opponent was a MT fighter? What the MT fighter would do is "out of bounds" for their training..

What is reaisitic isn't style specific -- realsitic means you are facing a genuinely resisting opponent who is trying to overcome you with physical force. Another way of looking at it is that your training/practice "looks" like your fighting.

Your art will have a certain focus (skill set), for example in BJJ it is the ground, but what they do within that focus is realsitic. In other words they practice dealing with a genuinely resisting opponent who is trying to overcome them with physical force (on the ground). That's why their rolling (training) looks just liek their fighting -- their training is fighting.

Same thing in WCK training in ChiSao.. Yes some things are "out of bounds"...

The luk sao is only a starting point for positional neutrality.. It is comparable to a grappler's lock up that many use as a starting point, no opponent is going to do that for you..

No, chi sao isn't realistic, and luk sao isn't anything like a grappler's lock up -- a grappler's lock up will actually happen in fighting, it is realistic, it occurs when facing someone who is genuinely trying to resist you and overcome you --you will never get the luk sao position in fighting. Never. It is completely artificial. Nor will your opponent leave his arms ourstretched for you to "cling to". Nor will he stand in YJKYM. Nor will he refrain from shooting in or trying to pummel in. Nor will he restrict himself to WCK-typepunches. Etc. Etc. Your chi sao, however you do it, will never "look" like fighting.

What wrestlers do you will actually see in fighting just as they do it in practice. That's how you know it is realistic.

And when WCK folks ChiSao and begin the interaction (beyond LukSao) they are actually doing WCK..

And let me be clear:

There is NO DIFFERENCE... Just because you relegate WCK techniques and use thereof to "unrealistic BS" does not make it so.. If two guys go at it in ChiSao (maybe they don't like each other or want to go hard) then once they are past the LukSao what do you think they are doing? Assuming they are trying to punish the opponent..? Hmmm?

They are still playing chi sao, they are both behaving unrealistically. If you believe your chi sao is realistic (and so corresponds to fighting), then just get some nonWCK people, start in contact and fight -- it should look just like your "normal" chi sao. We both know that it won't.

For some reason if they start in contact, actually try to hit and control the other, this is "unrealistic" WCK drilling for you..!?!?!? Then all drilling is unrealistic and ChiSao is not special in this regard.

Just having someone trying to hit you doesn't make a drill realisitic -- there is more to it than that. People spar all the time and their sparring isn't realistic.

Yes it's a drill.. It is supposed to offer more flexibility..but that's the point of a drill.

It's an unrealsitic drill, and so you are not developing realistic skills. It is WCK with the traiing wheels on -- it will only take you so far. It is beginner-level WCK.

These two elements are present in ChiSao when folks play that way...

And this and the above elements are not something you did in ChiSao? (Y/N)

Oh, wait a minute.. Oh, I see the problem: Both are trying to use WCK so of course it's all BS and useless and unrealistic.. Sure it all makes sense now.. GMAFB!

I mean really.. That's the point of the training, to train WCK, not X..for God's sake.

Chi sao doesn't "train" WCK. Riding around on a bicycle with training wheels is't bike riding "training" -- it's simply a way to learn to ride. The training commences when you take off the training wheels.

No $hit?

Sounds like why we don't do take-downs and boxing in ChiSao... But you'd attack that...yet for grappling work it's just dandy.. Seems rather prejudicial.


Put a grappler only guy in his lockup with an undercover MT guy and then see what happens when the MT guy puts on the necktie and begins kneeing the crap out of the grappler... SURPRISE!!!

A drill of any kind in any method is not fighting.. One is cooperative, one is not.. No cooperative drill is a fight.. No cooperative drill is *realistic* in as much as it is not fighting and is cooperative.

A good drill is a snippet of fighting. Here's the easy way to ID realistic drilling: realistic drills take a "snippet" of fighting -- something they are actually doing in fighting and you can see occurring in fighting -- and they keep repeating it under fighting conditions (against a genuinely resisting opponent).

See.. For you, behaving like a WCK guy, is not realistic.. That's your problem.. The partner IS acting like a genuinely resisting WCK guy, (from in-contact--remember--where WCK is used) not like a genuinely resisting Boxer, MT guy, Grappler, MMA dude, and so you disqualify the WCK man.. Pretty silly coming from a WCK man....

You are starting from the position that the WCK man will be doing "that" in fighting, and I am saying that he will not -- this is your theory, what you imagine he will be doing. It only works in chi sao because the other person is playing by chi sao rules, and those rules are not realsitic -- they are not how people really fight. People won't behave in contact like someone who does chi sao. So when you do chi sao you are not facing the resistances, the actions, the problems, etc. that you will be in fighting. So, you can't learn or practice dealing with those things. Put anyone in an attached fighting situation and have them fight and it won't "look" anything like chi sao.

These kinds of statements from you is akin to bashing your own art.

It's not the art, it is how it is taught and trained.

Blanket statement.

If you start in contact with anyone there are a million variables.. This statement in not quantifiable and therefore meaningless.

And none of them will look like chi sao! When you roll (start off on the ground and fight), there are a million variables, but you learn to deal with them BY dealing with them -- not by not dealing with them.

False statement..and prejudicial.

You have automatically labeled anything the WCK guy does as "unrealistic".

No, what I am saying is that the drill/exercise itself is unrealistic -- it is not "fighting" and doesn't correspond to what happens in fighting.

That is what you are doing, you are saying here that a WCK man's tools, tactics, actions and reactions are by definition not realistic.. And while that may be true from a Boxer's POV it is not true for WCK's POV, sorry.

Now, that doesn't mean that all ChiSao and players are acting realistic and consistent with WCK it just means that it doesn't mean they aren't, don't or can't either.

What I am saying is that when you practice in an unrealsitic environment (not under realistic fighting conditions), you are not developing fighting skills and are, by definition, doing it wrong.

Ideally, there should be a 1 to 1 to 1 correspondence between what you learn, what you practice, and your fighting -- you learn it as you will really do it, practice it as you will really do it, and do it in fighting just like you've learned and practiced. That's realistic, functional learning and training.

You need to re-read my post..

While we can adapt tools, techniques and methods;

The tools do not change. The tools are the tools.

The techniques do not change.. The techniques are the techniques.

The conditions that allow our tools/techniques to work do not change. The conditions are the conditions..

The tools of any martial art are what you use to play the game (fight). You only learn how to use the tools and play the game by playing the game (by fighting).

This is the point of ChiSao, to train conditioned responses (*attacks* based on position and force. Position and force are generic and ARE what make up the *conditions* that dictate which WCK moves will work under resistance and in the moment.

Wrong. And entirely theoretical. If you actually did any contact fighting, you'd know that isn't the case. Just go get some nonWCK sparring partners, start in contact, and try to fight while attached and you'll see how wrong you are. If you don't do that, you never will.

[YungChun]

Your art will have a certain focus (skill set), for example in BJJ it is the ground, but what they do within that focus is realsitic. In other words they practice dealing with a genuinely resisting opponent who is trying to overcome them with physical force (on the ground). That's why their rolling (training) looks just liek their fighting -- their training is fighting.

Same thing in ChiSao.. Both trying to "overcome" the other.. But for some odd reason you call it unrealistic.. Even though it's the same thing.. Both partners using what is in their art to overcome the other.. But for you, if in the case of WCK then it's unrealistic.no matter how it's done right?

See one set of rules for the other arts another set for WCK.. And that's BS.

No, chi sao isn't realistic, and luk sao isn't anything like a grappler's lock up -- a grappler's lock up will actually happen in fighting..

Sure it could happen but if the grappler isn't fighting someone who wants to lock up then no, it won't happen..

Nor will he stand in YJKYM. Nor will he refrain from shooting in or trying to pummel in. Nor will he restrict himself to WCK-typepunches. Etc. Etc. Your chi sao, however you do it, will never "look" like fighting.

WCK does not shoot, and we DO use WCK punches... See it's okay if grapplers only grapple, that's realistic, it's fine if Boxers only use boxing but if WCK folks only train wck in the drill then no it's unrealistic.. Total BS..

WCK fighting will not look like some other kind of fighting.. WCK will use WCK tools and techniques... TWO WCK folks will BOTH be using those..

In the DRILL of ChiSao both will be using WCK tools and techniques..

What wrestlers do you will actually see in fighting just as they do it in practice. That's how you know it is realistic.

So what *we* do is unrealistic.. And by *we* you mean WCK.. So what WCK does is unrealistic? Right.. And what do you "do" that is more realistic AND WCK?

They are still playing chi sao, they are both behaving unrealistically. If you believe your chi sao is realistic (and so corresponds to fighting), then just get some nonWCK people, start in contact and fight -- it should look just like your "normal" chi sao. We both know that it won't.

ChiSao is a drill with two WCK people trying to train WCK... How is this the same thing, and how would it look the same as a non WCK person and a WCK person fighting? These two things are not the same and so there is no relevance to these kinds of mis-comparisons.. You are using apple examples to prove your theory about bananas.

It is NOT the same thing.. Two wrestlers rolling is not going to look like a grappler fighting against a ground and pounder... So what? All your examples are severely flawed and you'd never win a real debate with this kind of bunk.

The fact is that WCK's tools and techniques are what they are and do not change.. Doesn't matter where or how they are used.

Just having someone trying to hit you doesn't make a drill realisitic -- there is more to it than that. People spar all the time and their sparring isn't realistic.

Straw man argumentation..

So you are comparing ChiSao to bad sparring.. irrelevant, you assume the "bad" to enable your "theory"..

It's not the drill it's how it's done.. Hard contact ChiSao done with continuity uses the same tools and techniques that WCK uses wherever and whenever it is in use--they don't change.

It's an unrealsitic drill, and so you are not developing realistic skills. It is WCK with the traiing wheels on -- it will only take you so far. It is beginner-level WCK.

It takes years to get good at it.. I doubt you are any good at it.. (and if you can't do it in a drill..well you know the rest..) It's also clear you don't have a clear understanding of it's purpose or how it relates to WCK fighting...

Chi sao doesn't "train" WCK. Riding around on a bicycle with training wheels is't bike riding "training" -- it's simply a way to learn to ride. The training commences when you take off the training wheels.

Good example..!

When you ride a bike with or without training wheels on you are still riding a bike, in exactly the same way you will with them (the training wheels) off..

The main difference is simply a safety net, true for both ChiSao and sparring. In ChiSao you use those tools and techniques you will use in fighting--it's that simple..

A good drill is a snippet of fighting.

ChiSao is a "snippet" of WCK fighting. Anyone can see that. No it does not address all things outside of WCK, but it was never intended to. Just like two grapplers rolling does not address other art's attacks.. They focus on their game, we focus on our game. That is the bottom line.

this is your theory, what you imagine he will be doing. It only works in chi sao because the other person is playing by chi sao rules, and those rules are not realsitic -- they are not how people really fight.

This has nothing to do with "how people fight".. It has to do with how WE fight.. Where WE means WCK people..

How many times must I say: The tools and the techniques are constants..

See on the one hand you watch videos and say, "That's not WCK because they are not using WCK tools and techniques.."

Then you say, "WCK tools and techniques will look nothing like that (what we all know) in real fighting because "boxers" don't do that, if it worked they would.."

Sounds to me like you are having some kind of cognitive dissonance.

People won't behave in contact like someone who does chi sao.

Who the F!#@# is talking about "people"? "People" pick their noses.. So F$@% what? We are talking about WCK training, which means WCK people doing WCK against WCK..

What other "people do" has nothing to do with what WCK does, with the exception of how they resist. People no matter who or what have two arms and two legs.. They can only resist or attack with their arms and legs..in a limited number of ways. ChiSao addresses any possible way bridges can resist in our space: Push; pull; sweep aside; lift; drop; grab; leave, etc.

Some folks even add in non WCK attacks to "check" the response..

So when you do chi sao you are not facing the resistances, the actions, the problems, etc. that you will be in fighting.

ChiSao is intended to teach how to deal with a sub-set of conditions in fighting.. We already covered the fact that when you roll you have the same issue..

But in this case, as in all others, with you, it's only BS (unrealistic resistance) if it's WCK people training WCK.. That triggers your button.. It's because we are not training MMA resistance in ChiSao, (which is asinine) THIS is your problem with it.. ChiSao is not MMA..... No style specific drill in any art deals with things outside that art.. Boxers don't train kicks, they don't train take-downs, nor do they train to defend against them..

Same thing if you have two WCK folks sparring.. They won't be grappling, they won't be boxing, they won't be rolling.... ChiSao is a DRILL-- a subset (snippet) of WCK fighting using WCK tools and techniques against another person doing the same! So somehow two folks trying to control and hit the other, both using WCK tools and techniques, making contact, etc, is not what they need to train for WCK fighting..

Wrong. And entirely theoretical.

No, YOU are wrong..

Any idiot knows that in-contact techniques require position, force and timing conditions to work, these conditions dictate what technique can/should be done--same as in grappling.. Ever heard "There is no submission without position"? Same exact thing.

Any move requires conditions to work, and the job of the fighter is to identify the "problem"/conditions and then apply the correct solution--this is what ChiSao programs with an alive and RESISTING partner.

It's clear to me you were never taught this and so this is why ChiSao is meaningless and useless to you--because the ChiSao you were taught is useless and meaningless..

If you are saying that WCK tools change in real fighting vs ChiSao then give an example..

If you are saying that WCK techniques change in real fighting vs ChiSao then give an example..

If you are saying that the conditions that allow WCK tools and techniques to work change in real fighting vs ChiSao then give an example..

If you actually did any contact fighting, you'd know that isn't the case. Just go get some nonWCK sparring partners, start in contact, and try to fight while attached and you'll see how wrong you are.

You are confused... How and why would ChiSao, even hard core ChiSao which involves two WCK people look like what non WCK would do?

You always say things that contradict even your own BS..

"All anyone has is their own interpretation of WCK"... Right but unless we match what you think is right then we are wrong.. BS.

"Look to good fighters to know what works.." You can't learn WCK or even see examples of WCK by looking at things that ARE NOT WCK..

Go ahead and explain exactly how (any) of the tools, techniques and conditions of WCK change (post rolling--when the action begins) from use within ChiSao (unrealistic) to use in actual application. Thanks....

But, if you can't then your entire thesis is a complete load and your "case" is dismissed.

[RGVWingChun]

Chi sao isn't to develop "sensitivity" or "contact reflexes" -- it is a platform to teach/learn various contact skills. As chi sao is an unrealistic drill, any "reflexes" you develop will be wrong.

technically - and self defense experts agree here (Marc MacYoung, Rory Miller, etc...ALL martial arts TRAINING is unrealistic because its TRAINING. This is such a moot point that is being made here, seriously. And yet all these and other self defense experts advocate some form of contact reflex training similar to chi sau. But they are all quick to say that TRAINING is not the end, it is a means to an end. Chi Sau is not fighting, its training and as long as one can distinguish the difference and help to develop reflexes that are useful for fighting, there is something to be gained from it.

Good grapplers develop contact skills without doing chi sao -- how? By simply grappling. In other words, by using their contact skills in sparring.

So grappers get good at what they do by doing a drill that is particular to their art....hmmmm....so in the like manner, wouldn't a wing chun practioner get good at there art by doing the drill unique to their art?

Firstly, your translation of the kuit -- "stick to what comes, follow what leaves, hands free strike direct"-- is very, very wrong.

Relevance???

Secondly, chi sao does not develop "sensitivity". Sensitivity is nothing more than timing derived from our tactile sense. But you don't -- and can't -- develop timing from chi sao since your partner isn't behaving realistically (he is not fighitng you). What chi sao "develops" is a false timing.

Again, I think your concept of chi sau and mine is totally different here....I don't not train with "set techniques" or "drills". I don't do "structure 1" or anything like that....maybe if you had a better idea of how other people do chi sau you might think differently. I can only say that comments like these are made in ignorance of the training methods of others. We don't all do it the same way.

Thirdly, all forms of unrealistic training involve (by definition) doing the actions, movements, and skills wrong. So, the more you do unrealsitic training (chi sao), the more you waste your time and the worse you get.

Again, if you want to "train realistically" then training should cease and one should just fight....all TRAINING is unrealistic in that training is not actually fighting. Even when sparring each person is only willing to go so far so as not to actually hurt - or do something worse that each respective art is capable of doing - to their partner. All TRAINING can seek to do is to get us as close as possible to simulating real fighting. Chi Sau does this by addressing different possible hand to hand relationships (inside, outside, crossed, etc...). This way when hands cross in a fight one is not in "unfamiliar" or "untrained" territory but one is able to reflexively and instinctively respond to the energy being detected through the contact

Fourthly, you can learn and/or develop functional skills by simply doing that skill realistically.

Again, I think these kinds of comments are simply based on ignorance of the training methods of others. I'm sure that many other wing chun practitioners here can attest that they start to throw "real punches" at each other in their training to be able to do wing chun techniques against these.

If that's "all you are left with", then your WCK training was very, very incomplete.

More ignoranc and arrogance displayed here.

WCK has a method, an organized, strategic approach to fighting (without which you are lost). It has various tools (skills and tactics) to implement that approach. It has a kuit to point you in the right direction. Instead of practicing the skills in an unrealsitic exercise that unrealstically represents contact/attached fighting, just learn and practice in contact/attached fighting.



Go fight some non WCK people while in contact/attached and see if that "looks" like chi sao. It won't. That tells you that chi sao is unrealistic training. To develop your WCK movement/actions into fighting skills you need to practice using them in contact/attached fighting, i.e., sparring.

That's what rolling is in BJJ -- rolling is using your BJJ skills in sparring.

I recently had at it with a BJJ guy....a rodrigo Pinheiro guy....didn't go so well for him

I practiced chi sao for 20 years before I realized that I had been wasting my time for 19 years! Once you can ride the bicycle with the training wheels on, it is time to take the training wheels off (and you don't even need the training wheels in the first place). Continuing to ride around with the training wheels on won't make you any better. You get better by just riding the bike.

Nothing is "rote" about sparring (which is riding the bike) -- all the functional martial arts use realistic sparring as their core platform for teaching/learning and for training (which is why they are functional).

Sorry if this comes across as a bit hard, but I completely disagree with the conclusions here.

My humble opinion,

Moses

[t_niehoff]

The fact is that WCK's tools and techniques are what they are and do not change.. Doesn't matter where or how they are used.

Then you say, "WCK tools and techniques will look nothing like that (what we all know) in real fighting because "boxers" don't do that, if it worked they would.."

Sounds to me like you are having some kind of cognitive dissonance.

Who the F!#@# is talking about "people"? "People" pick their noses.. So F$@% what? We are talking about WCK training, which means WCK people doing WCK against WCK..

If you are saying that WCK tools change in real fighting vs ChiSao then give an example..

If you are saying that WCK techniques change in real fighting vs ChiSao then give an example..

If you are saying that the conditions that allow WCK tools and techniques to work change in real fighting vs ChiSao then give an example..

Go ahead and explain exactly how (any) of the tools, techniques and conditions of WCK change (post rolling--when the action begins) from use within ChiSao (unrealistic) to use in actual application. Thanks....

But, if you can't then your entire thesis is a complete load and your "case" is dismissed.

I snipped a bunch of stuff in your post to highlight to the essential thing you seem to be missing:

If your movement looks different when you spar/fight (actually apply your method against a genuinely resisting opponent that is trying to overcome you by direct physical force) than when you perform some drill or exercise, like chi sao, then you are drilling wrong, you are wasting your time, and you are developing bad habits.

That's because you are practicing moving one way to then move another.

By movement I don't mean just various individual movements but your total, overall movement.

Does your fighting look exactly like your chi sao? Does your chi sao look exactly like your fighting? No, because chi sao is NOT fighting, so it it not realistic and doesn't develop realsitic skill. Yes, WCK tools, techniques, movment, tactics (the pieces) -- tan sao, bong sao, etc. may be used in both chi sao and fighting, but you are not moving the same way, you are not putting the pieces together in the same way.

Look at the following clip, and pay attention to contact fighting starting at 28 seconds in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU

That's what contact, attached fighting is going to look like. That's what you need to prepare for. It's not going to look like chi sao -- where you partner behaves in an artifical, unrealistic way. That's where you are going to need to make your WCK tools work.

Does chi sao prepare you for that? No. You could do chi sao your entire life and it wouldn't prepare you. What does prepare you? Doing it. Sparring/fighting in that environment and trying to work out for yourself (or with the help of someone who has already done the work) of how to make your art work -- how to put the pieces together. That's what we do every time we train. And we've spent hundreds of hours doing it.

I told you to go find some nonWCK people and start in contact and fight, and try to apply your WCK. You'll see how much your chi sao has helped you. If you won't do that, you will never know.