Southern Mantis - Why so secret?

[Richard mantis]

Jack

Thanks. Will do.

I am looking forward to your global posting.

Take care.

Rich

[jon]

Im going to now use JF Springer's advice and select one of the 12 bridge techniques and marry it to a common strike found in Hung Ga.
Im going to go with the crowding bridge as these are some of the skills Hung is better known for. Its also a skill found frequently in the form im currently polishing, making this a good study for me personaly.
'forcing-crowding' a way of colapasing the structure of your opponent. Often an outwards semi circlular movement frequently tiger.
The technique im going to use is the famous 'hungry tiger catching lamb' pose [proberly known under several names] which I use this as my avatar. If you look under my name you can see Lam Sai Wing performing this movement.
The theory behind the application of this movement is to use your body weight and blocking arm to sink right over an attacking limb and into the opponents body at the same time attacking with your other arm.
Done properly this will force your opponent of balance and also close the door on there defence, there attacking arm is effectivly nailed accross there body shutting off the the other limb as well.
Use of this movement requires bravery as you must activly step into an attack it also requires a good root and strong arms to be pulled off effectivly.
The power is generated though a combination of pushing off the ground from a low bow stance and turning the waist.
This is a fairly common movement in Hung Ga and I thought it might do for a comparison.
Is there any similar movements in SPM? Would this kind of movement be used in spm or would it conflict with the style?
If anyone would like to share with me a bridge and technique from there school for comparision it would be great.

[JF Springer]

Jon - Good choice for a starting point. I'll answer a part of it and then hopefully some others will pick it up from there.

Just a quick reminder of the previously submitted and agreed to comparison format: We deal with points of agreement first, secondly the points of divergence are addressed, and finally we examine how the technical aspects (the formation of the structures) play out in the tactical arena (application).

The "pinning" effect is what JL SPM typically describes as "closing" or "locking" with the understanding that the direction is relative to the opponent's centerline, e.g., "in" is towards his centerline.

Mor sau from the outside - in is an example of this. As an analogous structure you might think in terms of Hung Gar's inward hooking crane hands. Mor sau is less vertically inclined, less perpendicular to the ground, a flatter angle, but similar enough for our present purpose.

As with your Hung Gar model, the opponent's engaged bridge is "locked" into his centerline and temporarily deprives him of this weapon.

Another common element is the possibility of pinning or locking in concert with downing force. This further mechanically disadvantages the opponent in that the angle of force can be such that it feeds into his center of mass.

This creates a line of force through his balance point angling towards the ground which can freeze him place for a split instant. A bit like "nailing him to the ground" so to speak.

Yet another common aspect is the biomechanical disadvantage placed upon the opponent. From a purely anatomical perspective if he receives or is fed a "down and in" force through his bridge the brunt of the immediate force load is accomadated by the frontal deltoid complex. This is a relatively weak muscle group.

By way of example, tie a length of rope to 25 - 50 pound weight. Then extend your bridge to your front. Next, have someone place the rope loop over your bridge. Close your eyes and have them drop the weight when they choose with you focusing on keeping your bridge extended. Have them visually note the angle of your bridge at its downward most point of travel. The implications of this side experiment should be obvious.

The root structures of both examples are also similar to a degree in that both place the majority of your body mass on line with the angle of force you are feeding into the opponent's bridge.

Another element common to both structures is that the centerline locking or pinning momentarily deprives the opponent of the ability to produce rotational force. He can neither dissolve nor effectively strike through mechanics dependent upon rotational force production.

Okay, that's enough out of me.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Richard,

Respect & regards to GM Mark and the Pai, great to have you here!

John F.

John, you know don't you that some troll is going to say that you should be posting about attack and defence ocurring within the length of a cow lying down nose-to-tail? Isn't that what REAL martial arts are about and not the scientific analysis of mechanics, movement, structure and energy - synthesised with tactics and street real technique?

New Year levity aside, excellent post between you and Hung-Gar Jon (if I can refer to you that way Jon?). I've been privileged to have studied both Hung-Gar and Lam Pai Tong-Long over some decades now, and I can still learn from lucid debate between intelligent, open and experienced collegues.

Cheers Friends,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

No doubt the Troll will have something devoid of content to say. Then again, who could really take serious some clown that claims all kinds of "secret squirrel" information and being “inside” many mysterious doors yet doesn't have the balls to post his name, identify his Sifu, or state his lineage, much less show up for gong sau?

The people on this forum have seen all kinds of Trolls and are able to easily identify them. They’re marked by the same characteristics. It all comes down to credibility and the cowardly Troll has none. “Mark of the Troll.”

The ignore idiots feature is great. Load the loser into it and he appears just like his posts, empty.

Yeah, the length of a cow lying down nose-to-tail, what a hoot!!

[jon]

Steven
The day ill mind being refered to as 'Hung-Gar Jon' would only be from the priest on my wedding day, hehe ie proberly never
Can I ask how long you studied Hung Ga for and what sort of forms and stuff you got into during your training in Hung? Just out of interest really.


JF Springer
Thank you for your comparison, our two models obviously have a fair amount in common. The sinking and centreline pinning are quite common in Hung Ga and the ideals run deep into many of the movements ive so far learnt.
One thing i wanted to ask... In my system much bridging is done with the forearms and as such we spend a great deal of time conditioning them.
Does southern mantis use the forearms much in bridging? If so what kind of training do you use to develop skill in things like sensitivity and sticking.
In my school we use puch hands and several sticking hand drills to develop the sensitivity and then use external conditioning and qigung to stengthen and toughen the arms.

I think its time we let the troll go guys Im pretty sure he has run off with his tail between his legs [proberly to research some more old black belt magazines for his mouth boxing] and wont be heard from again untill he can think up something else pointless to say. At least thats what im telling myself

[jon]

Does this mean that when you guys perform your sets your actualy taking up MORE room than this! I bet you have also broken the four floortile rule? This is terrible, you claim to be teaching the real deal and now i hear this!!! Real spm is all about not having to move to far, taking exactly three steps and never teaching anyone who aint Chinese.
My set is still performed EXACTLY as Hung Hei Kwun designed it so ner ner

Just kidding guys have a great new year

[JF Springer]

Jon - Yes to your questions regarding sticking, conditioning, etc. Actually, Steve addressed this in a post on this thread. The point is that in the LYS Pai we don't stay a neophyte forever and move into actual application as soon as a proper foundation is created.

There are still several aspects of the current model to be examined and perhaps we can stay focused on this until it has been completely worked through.

The strike off the bridge hasn't been discussed. Additionally, we've yet to address points of divergence with the final phase of this exercise devoted to application.

So, if this is to be a meaningful learning experience let's keep focused and not get lost chasing tangents.

Jon, you could continue by reducing the Hung Gar strike in your model to words so that the JL SPM analogues can be identified and stated.

[Aussie John]

Good'ay Steve Si Hing,
If I may, I would like to share some of my experience of what I have learnt in the LYS Ho Sing's style with everyone (especially Hung Gar Jon) on this thread.

Jon:
There are many different styles of SPM as you can see, and they are more of less the same in regards to the formular of body posture and ma bo, however some SPM develop a lot more on the elbow ging whilst other on the shoulder.
e.g. In LYS - Ho Sing Pai, we use twisting and turning power of the body and legs together with the shoulder ging to deliver the dealy strikes.
It cuts in or across the opponent's centreline very fast using the Ho-Sing's Ginger Fist hand first, and then using the palms, forearms and elbows to control of the opponent's planes to facilitate the finishing off techniques.
The LYS Ho Sing kiu sau is very fast and flowing, and is able to change directions once contact is made with the opponent's bridge. Although LYS Ho Sing have many bridge on bridge techniques like other SPM, it is also very efficient on its leaking hand techniques.
The Ho Sing Alternative Ginger Fist is probably one of the unique hand fists that the practitioner need to be patiently trained before understand the concept and its usage. It is held very different to the Chow gar and Chu Gar and other Jook Lum Pais. At first it looks like the formation of the Choy Li Fut Chup Chui, however its delivery cover a broad spectrum of angles and pressure points than Choy Li Fut. The foreknuckles of the fingers and thumb are used to aim at the limbs and pressure points of the opponent's bridge to break down of its defence while cutting in and delivering strikes such as the "accelerated Ginger to Phoenix fist" to areas of the body.
The practitioner also learn to link up this unique Ginger Fist hand to other techniques such as Faan sau (Switching hand), Jeet Kiu (intercepting bridge hand), Jook Kiu (bamboo hand), Juun Kiu ( Spinning bridge hand), Got Kiu (cutting bridge hand) and Ding Kiu (upward striking bridge hand).
The Ho Sing's unique style is an important part of SPM, and it has enriched my understanding of the striking and leaking concept in SPM.


Cheers,


Aussie John.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello Hung-Gar Jon,

I was the senior student to the late Hung-Gar Master Jimmy Chan-Wai from 1975 - 1981 (I started Tong-Long in 1980). I did Wing-Chun and Hop-Gar from 1973, and Karate & Boxing from 1966.

Lineage in Hung-Gar is from Wong-Fei-Hung: Fung-Hok-Biu: Law-Keung: Chan-Wai.

Master Chan taught Northern Shaolin too at the same time as the HG. I received all the main hand sets and a number of weapons in HG.

Aussie John,

Many thanks Friend, for contributing. It is good to get a perspective on Lee-Yin-Sing's J-L from someone who is well versed in other Tong-Long Pai also. Cheers.

[bean curd]

steven,

read with interest your lineage on hung kuen is through fung hok biu, is he also known as fung wing biu, if they are not one in the same, do you know their relationship.

cheers

[Steven T. Richards]

This is a most misunderstod and underappreciated advanced approach to learning Tong-Long Kuen.

I'll make empirical comments based upon my own learning from my Masters and how I teach my own students:

It is often said that TCMA students must learn the systems structures to a prolonged extent before applying them in application. Some Pai actually wait some years before attempting to teach 'live-fire' methods.

My view is that this has many drawbacks. Beginners can't (initially) make their structures work against realistic attacks and so will fail in a real fighting situation, UNLESS, they are taught right from the get-go to feel the pressure of real attacks - and to apply their new learning.

Quite naturally, this will be an initial experience (usually) of failure of an as yet incompletely mastered system and its structures/dynamics.

It is better to fail early on in the compratively 'safe' environ of a Kwoon, than, some years down the road, after considerable experence of compliance based artificial structures - to get yer head kicked in by someone who only knows how to fight 'naturally'.

Far from getting ahead of themselves, the pressure testing LYS Pai approach gets students psychologically and physically prepared both to get hit and to 'fail' - and to stop themselves getting hit and to win.

Both technical and practical structures/scenarios can and rae learned in tandem.

It is very sad to see TCMA students get beat after years of BS based abstract training - far better to invole the student immediately in problem solving reality based scenario's - and to recursively test their techniques, both against their own learning curve, and the experiences of their seniors and elders.

This means error correcting feedback going into the learning curve - that produces refined, realistic skills as well as an excellent standard of 'proper form'.

Personally, I find that students are much more motivated to progress, and do so more rapidly, if their intelligence is engaged by realism.

It used to amuse me that so many TCMA people would 'tell' me that this approach does not/cannot work - without the slightest experience of it. NOw, I am less amused and more resigned to the relativity of knowledge and experience: which, in the street, is a primary selective factor in survival.

One of the fundamental drawbacks of some TCMA is the 'culture' of abstraction - something that is very 'inductive' - insidiously so in many cases, so that students eventually live in a virtual world supported only by some years of frank BS based training in a compliant comfort zone.

I am happy for my people to 'breakdown' my structure - even for beginners to get thru. It suggests to me that I'm teaching properly if my people 'get it' and understand enough to 'solve' the problem.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Bean Curd,

Fung-Hok-Biu as I understand it is not the famous Fong-Wing-Biu, but a much junior student of WFH. My lineage was not a 'senior' one, but a respectable one nevertheles. Master Chan-Wai's uncle was Law-Keung. If it helps, Master Chan was ethnicly a 'Bundhi' Chinese from Kwangtung.

I've noticed some striking sequencial and technical variations between the Kung-Ji-Fook-Fu set, and the Fu-Hok-Sung-Ying form that I learned from Chan-Wai and some of the more familiar versions routinely practiced in other lineages.

Master Chan's school flourishes in Liverpool UK. It is headed by Stephen Ornelious, who was his last senior student.

Regards,

Steve.

[JF Springer]

Steve - Your accounting of the LYS Pai preference for "pressure testing" from the start is right on point.

The "WhooDoo VooDoo" crowd's, regardless of system, aversion to this is ill founded, erroneous and IMO, non-traditional.

Mastery of any art form is a life time endeavor. However, appreaciable skill should be realized and nurtured fairly early on. "Traditionally" martial art systems were just that, systems for fighting conceived and developed during historical periods when simply calling the police, or dialing 911 in the USA, was not an option.

Looking to the modern battle field for comparative time lines I note the following: US Army Infantry School is approx. 13 weeks past Basic Training which is approx. 10 weeks. US Army Ranger School tends to run about 6 months on average (with a phase recycle or two). The US Army Special Forces curriculum, post the SFAS initial qualifying course, is realized in about 12 - 24 months depending on specialty.

What is key is that all the "advanced" military skills schools are based largely on "pressure testing" and to a much larger degree than most civilian MA students would agree to undergo.

In fact, one of the first things done to the students in the modern military schools noted above is to subject them to sleep deprivation and restrict caloric intake (food) in order to elevate the level of pressure-stress they must successfully perform under.

The highest achievement possible for any US military Airborne soldier is to successfully pass the Jump Master School. It is pure, unrelenting pressure with absolutely -0- tolerance for error. The conditions are such that the school (US Army Special Forces Jump Master Course) is actually designed to cause the student to fail the first time through the course.

IME, there is nothing more difficult to do, from a technical and tactical perspective, than successfully "shoot, move and communicate" on the modern battle field. Lethal force with deadly consequences is not an abstract possibility. Rather, it is a repeatedly manifested reality.

As you noted, the frequent incidence of "experienced" TCMA students getting their heads handed to them in a real world encounter is proof positive that cooperative school house play does not result in skills that transfer to real world.

A useful level of MA skill can and will be achieved in a relatively brief amount of time if the learning conditions are right, e.g., pressure testing and the student honestly applies his/herself at all times.

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello JF,

Many thanks, you've very successfully drawn the right 'martial' prallels with today's real world environment - drawn from your own high pressure valency background.

IMO this has to be present to fulfill the 'martial' aspect of the martial-arts 'equation'.

To be frank, I believe that some of the resistance to pressure testing these days comes from teachers who have an eye on maintaining their 'status' vis-a-vis their students. They couldn't risk their 'superior' position by encouraging (and teaching) their students to whack them from a very early stage in their training.

There is an issue of character development too as well as physical pressure testing, and this is the most difficult and teacher intensive aspect of the process.

Obviously, different students arrive at the start of the martial Road, with their own unique set of character and personality traits. Under 'pressure' these will differentiate out according to psychological factors that are independent of them being reduced collectively to 'students' - we retain both our common humanity and our unique dispositions regardless of being 'students' in a martial art.

Some will get carried away with their initial and sporadic success, and will have to deal with their inflation being 'popped' when their technical skills don't transfer uniformly across in all situations. Some 'victories' are transient or based only on luck. A hard lesson in itself to learn. They will then have to appreciate the real need to develop refined skills as the basis for further improvement. At this point, some will give up learning, and... rightly so.

Others will feel real fear at pressure, at the potential for failure, and perhaps bring with them learned responses to humiliation (as they may perceive it) from failures in prior learning. They can be reached thru an understanding of how skills develop, reciprocally, with problem-solving pressure testing scenario's.

As close as possible a marriage between form and function.

This will give them the best help to reach inside and draw out their potential. The streets are unforgiving - but the Kwoon is 'safe' - a comfort zone at least 'in potentia'. We need to avoid the construction of abstract comfort zones for our people.

The are many, many, other student scenario's, and the teacher needs a personal relationship with each student of in order to tailor their learning appropriately. This cannot be achieved in a large class or group, and will have very a low success in an inflexible or otherwise dogmatic teaching environ.

On the positive side, this positive pressure-testing approach builds great bonds of comradeship and an understanding of personal limitations - something absent in not a few martial artists.

Known limitations can be worked with - towards real development of character. The unknown - being inaccessible to awareness - is free to generate martial fanatsy in compensation for unconscious anxiety.