Chi Sao - What do you get?

[sanjuro_ronin]

We chat a lot about chi sao
Understatement, I know.

But what do YOU feel YOU get from chi sao that you can't get from doing anything else?

[Frost]

of course i only did wing chun for a little bit (but i have also done other short hand styles) but i feel i got some sensitivity, close range hitting and learned to cover the center of the body, learned about elbow position etc but i feel i understand all this much better from clinch training and grappling than i ever did from doing these drills. My sensitivity, ability to hit from close range, ability to tie up the opponent and cover the centre of the body i feel were all better trained from the clinch and grappling.

[k gledhill]

read the post i made in the alan gibson thread....

VT is a systematic progression of developing techniques that allow the concepts to work.

we need core ability to have solid punches with balnced mobile attacking and defending ability.

With dan chi sao we develop basic striking skills

with chi-sao we exchange force with each other to develop solid movement under pressure as drills, while striking and attacking with relentless , explosive striking. developing intuitive distance awareness for hitting with force and balanced movement. the distance awareness being a key element and adopting natural angles to arms/legs as they come at us. iow we arent trying to develop sensitivity for its own sake ...thats a by-product of the aforementioned drilling.

by alignment skills in early drilling dan chi-sao, we are made aware of how to taek advantage of simple unaligned force towards us...not to stick to it and feel its intent we know that already.



after chi-sao you enter into basic fighting drills how to enter into a guy attacking with the skills and attributes developed earlier....if a mistake appears it can be isolated to a drill.

fighting is the goal. mobility, relentless attacking ability. strong stances that displace by natural strength from training in constant contact with a mutual partner. We dont seek to stabilize opponents by offering ourselves as support like the drill.

we become like a moving mountain with arms like lightning... cue the flute !

[sanjuro_ronin]

read the post i made in the alan gibson thread....

VT is a systematic progression of developing techniques that allow the concepts to work.

we need core ability to have solid punches with balnced mobile attacking and defending ability.

With dan chi sao we develop basic striking skills

with chi-sao we exchange force with each other to develop solid movement under pressure as drills, while striking and attacking with relentless , explosive striking. developing intuitive distance awareness for hitting with force and balanced movement. the distance awareness being a key element and adopting natural angles to arms/legs as they come at us. iow we arent trying to develop sensitivity for its own sake ...thats a by-product of the aforementioned drilling.

by alignment skills in early drilling dan chi-sao, we are made aware of how to taek advantage of simple unaligned force towards us...not to stick to it and feel its intent we know that already.



after chi-sao you enter into basic fighting drills how to enter into a guy attacking with the skills and attributes developed earlier....if a mistake appears it can be isolated to a drill.

fighting is the goal. mobility, relentless attacking ability. strong stances that displace by natural strength from training in constant contact with a mutual partner. We dont seek to stabilize opponents by offering ourselves as support like the drill.

we become like a moving mountain with arms like lightning... cue the flute !

And you can't get that from any other method?

[k gledhill]

Only VT .....who else does elbows like us ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Only VT .....who else does elbows like us ?

Ok, you said:
fighting is the goal. mobility, relentless attacking ability. strong stances that displace by natural strength from training in constant contact with a mutual partner.

The only method to get : "mobility, relentless attacking ability, strong stances that displace natural strength from constant contact " is chi sao?

Then, how do other systems get those qualities?

[SAAMAG]

The key is that you're getting those things via the wing chun techniques. You can of course get all those things from other systems, but it will be done differently.

I was talking about this with my Sifu the other day. He said that the unbridged skills are probably going to be more utilized for the most part --especially with those of lessor skill. He said the Chi sao skills come into play mostly when you meet someone of the around the same or greater skills.

But when he shows chi sao skills, its got nothing to do with flowery hands or going over prearranged tech 1 , tech 2, etc. Its all about posture, directing to the center, reacting to what's given in a manner that immobilies the other person completely.

What I get out of it...is learning to use the wing chun tools effectively to completely control my opponent. You can learn to control your opponent effectively with good clinch work as well from wrestling, muay thai, and the like--but not in the wing chun sense.

[Vajramusti]

And you can't get that from any other method?

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A common mistake is to regard chi sao as just a drill. The more you learn wing chun, the more you can do with your chi sao in a good Ip Man tradition. In chi sao you can tell how much wing chun a person has developed. Development of control , different kinds of timing,- your self and the other person,different kinds of timing, learning distance, lines, angles, circles, centering, balancing,engaging, disengaging, stepping, locking, unlocking, breaking,cavity work, using different parts of the hand and feet, attacking, blocking,semi grabbing, familiarity with different kinds of power, varying speeds, positioning... all relevant in chi sao.

Wing chun step by step progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,



Sure you can get some of this in other ways.I see no problem with people doing some other art.But wing chun is my carefully chosen art. To each his own. Wing chun progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,If someone does not like chi sao- probably best to find some other art.Keep it honest- don't call it wing chun.
Depending on one's preference a wing chun person can adjust to a sport of their choice.

As I often point out- wing chun diversity often shows lack of quality control in the art. Using poor examples of wing chun creates many straw man arguments against it.Without chi sao you end up mimicking wing chun motions.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

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A common mistake is to regard chi sao as just a drill. The more you learn wing chun, the more you can do with your chi sao in a good Ip Man tradition. In chi sao you can tell how much wing chun a person has developed. Development of control , different kinds of timing,- your self and the other person,different kinds of timing, learning distance, lines, angles, circles, centering, balancing,engaging, disengaging, stepping, locking, unlocking, breaking,cavity work, using different parts of the hand and feet, attacking, blocking,semi grabbing, familiarity with different kinds of power, varying speeds, positioning... all relevant in chi sao.

Wing chun step by step progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,



Sure you can get some of this in other ways.I see no problem with people doing some other art.But wing chun is my carefully chosen art. To each his own. Wing chun progressive development is a great way to organize all of the above. And there is more to chi sao than just single and double rolling,If someone does not like chi sao- probably best to find some other art.Keep it honest- don't call it wing chun.
Depending on one's preference a wing chun person can adjust to a sport of their choice.

As I often point out- wing chun diversity often shows lack of quality control in the art. Using poor examples of wing chun creates many straw man arguments against it.Without chi sao you end up mimicking wing chun motions.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks Joy, that was very well put.

[Ultimatewingchun]

We chat a lot about chi sao
Understatement, I know.

But what do YOU feel YOU get from chi sao that you can't get from doing anything else?

***I AGREE with Van that, although there are many other ways to develop good sensitivity, contact reflexes and the like, what chi sao provides is a unique way of doing all of the above in a WING CHUN context: relentless close quarter striking while maintaining control of the center, and if need be, your opponent's arms.

And not just any ol' striking, but a very particular kind: mainly a vertically fisted punch that has the elbow almost directly behind it while squaring up the centerline to the points on his body your attacking - for the most part (which is the basic uniqueness of wing chun)...

since close quarter elbow and knee strikes are thrown very similar to how other styles might throw them...and of course, there are the finger strikes, but this kind of attack is very limited compared to throwing punches.

And as Kevin pointed out, double arm chi sao does provide a good platform for learning and maintaining proper close quarter distancing in order to do the above moves (both offense and defense) efficiently...

and of course good chi sao will also provide the opportunity to learn some subtle unbalancing - and at times some very direct and aggressive pressuring - of the opponent's COG as well.

As for Joy's point that chi sao is more than just a drill - I couldn't disagree more; on the contrary, good wing chun quality contol, imo, has to be measured by a wing chun player's skills in fighting/sparring....

while it is true that if he has little-to-no real chi sao skills - although he may be a good fighter - he's probably not using that much wing chun in his arsenal. That said, to look upon chi sao as being something much more than a drill is to encourage over reliance upon chi sao as the measuring rod in judging one's overall wing chun skills - and imo only sparring/fighting can be such a measuring rod.

WHICH BRINGS ME TO A VERY IMPORTANT QUESTION THAT SANJURO OBVIOUSLY WAS TRYING TO ADDRESS IN THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD...

A good wrestler, grappler type can develop similar skills within their platforms (like pummeling)...and other styles can do similar things...

but if you want to understand the whole wing chun close infight striking game - and ability to flow through, around, above, and below openings in your opponent's defenses in order to strike him from very close...then you have to be skilled in chi sao - and then translate those chi sao skills into actual fighting/sparring...

since few other fighting methods (if any) do this particular thing as well.

[chusauli]

I get dynamic weight training. I am always to striving to get a person's weight on top of me, so I can manipulate it, guide it, control it, throw it and set up linked strikes from the manipulation.

WCK is based on indexing for tools - that is whatever fits in the gates at that moment, given the time and position relative to the opponent.

There are no fixed stances, only balance. There is no form/shape, only body structure in the moment. There are no hand techniques, only dealing with energy, which creates these moments in time that people call techniques.

[t_niehoff]

I go away for vacation for two weeks and come back to the inmates running the asylum.

Chi sao is not a drill? WTF is it then?

It's really very, very simple once you get past the fantasy, pretend-fighting perspectives. This sums it up drilling in a straightforward, clear way. The blog pertains to BJJ, but applies to ANY martial art:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/201...ule-of-drills/

The test for any skill development drill is: does what you do in the drill closely resemble your fighting? If not, then you are practicing one thing to do another, and that's the definition of poor training.

[SAAMAG]

I go away for vacation for two weeks and come back to the inmates running the asylum.

Chi sao is not a drill? WTF is it then?

It's really very, very simple once you get past the fantasy, pretend-fighting perspectives. This sums it up drilling in a straightforward, clear way. The blog pertains to BJJ, but applies to ANY martial art:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/201...ule-of-drills/

The test for any skill development drill is: does what you do in the drill closely resemble your fighting? If not, then you are practicing one thing to do another, and that's the definition of poor training.

Punching the speedbag doesn't look like anything a boxer would do in a fight, but it increases certain attributes boxers find valuable. A drill in general builds certain attributes or skills that are valuable in combat. The skill of touch sensitivity is important to wing chun with respect to it's techniques. Most people here realize the drill for what it is. Then again many do not. As long as a person keeps in mind what the goal of the drill is--and makes sure to be working towards that goal--the drill will be useful. One you stray away from it, its a waste of time (unfortunately this is what most of the YM line has done).

[Lee Chiang Po]

Chi Sao is indeed a drill. There can be any number of drills that can be called Chi Sao. It is as all WC drills, a system whereby 2 Wing Chun practitioners can practice their skills. Because only Wing Chun fighters use these techniques you can not really do these drills with fighters from other systems. They simply do not do Chi Sao as such, so all the Chi Sao you can do will not ready you to fight necessarily. It only teaches you to use your side of the equation. If you get into a fight somewhere it is not likely that it will be with another WC fighter, so you would be doing one sided Chi Sao. You will not get tanned, pakked, bonged, or rickidoed. Chi Sao is any drill whereby you train a particular technique or set of techniques, such as trapping for instance. You get to apply your defensive techniques, then your training partner gets to apply his or her own defensive techniques, back and forth. I think that when people started turning it into some sort of game it lost some of it real meaning.
I have had a rather unusual number of fights in my life, and I have met up with people with all sorts of different fighting skills, but I have yet to run up on another Wing Chun fighter. And most of these different fighting skills were not at all highly trained. This is not to say that an individual that is strong and aggressive can not give you one hell of a fight. What I am saying is that Chi Sao only works with someone that does chi sao.

[anerlich]

I go away for vacation for two weeks and come back to the inmates running the asylum.

The inmates have always run the asylum, however in your absence there seems to have been a lot less paranoid ideas of reference, one less person with a messiah complex, and rather less OCD about theoretical fighters.