WC in MMA

[Pacman]

That is a trap - its not going to be "Fan Sao" like in Chi Sao... that's fantasy stuff. In real fights, you do it that way to deliver the goods.

WC or any other fighting style won't look 100% like how you practice because in a real dynamic situation you have to adjust for distance, angles, balance, and a ton of other things etc.

I get that.

However you can't call grabbing a guy behind the head and punching him trapping. That is simply ridiculous.

I can tell you objectively and unemotionally why that is not WC trapping. It has nothing to do with how it looks either.

The whole point of trapping, the whole idea is to neutralize your opponents weapons be it hands or feet. So lets say you trap an arm then you have two of your hands against his one. You are safer. Now you have the advantage. That is trapping.

By standing in front of someone, putting one hand behind your opponents head and punching him is not trapping because you are still in the line of fire. He can hit you just as much as you are hitting him. The fight is still an open exchange.

[Pacman]

That's the thing about Orr's guys. No one is saying they can't fight, but what they are saying is that it's not WC. I used to be one of those people until I did more research on what they do, took a look at their 7 DVD set and therein were the principles of wing chun being used, along with the punches, and varied use of techniques like lan sao and other things. It's not 1800's WC, it's applied WC from an MMA perspective for modern day.

So now I look at it as more of an mma using WC elements type of style, because it's got wing chun in there, just not in the traditional sense

curious. what is modified? what principles are they doing?

im talking about in the fight.

[Alan Orr]

Seems to be no evidence of any of them fighting full contact... what a surprise.


Funny, but I'd be willing to bet Aaron and his guys would beg to differ in terms of whether or not they are using WC.

I must say - Dale I respect, as he understands what fighting really is about. You train your art and develop your skills - then you use them!

It answer to the question - Aaron and my guys all train wing chun - chu sau lei wing chun - which I feel is very different to a lot of wing chun as we use our forums and chi sao to develop our skills - timing, positioning, power and so on. Then we fight - punch and kick!!! Thats martial arts.

The forms and chi sao are about personal development of your skill, its not fighting! I was sparring tonight with Neil and a top MMA fighter who comes to learn our punching, power development and timing etc and I can tell you most wing chun guys would not last 20 seconds with these guys. Its hard work!

In wing chun you see So many people doing forms and chi sao, but no sparring or fighting! The forms and chi sao are Training tools. Like a boxing on a speed bag. You don't see them bring a speed bag to a fight or punch in the way they punch a speed bag. Its very funny, as really good wing chun as a lot to offer - we have training protocals that help us develop our skills to become second nature. But a lot of wing chun guys don't see that the art is in the application under pressure.

Its when you are in the hole being punched and you see that opening that you are awake. Doing forms and chi sao is like drilling armbars and having a light roll in BJJ. Thats all good and important, then you have to step it up and see what works well all the time and also for you. I really feel that a lot of wing chun guys are only doing half the training! lol Time to try the other half - the hard half!

Before you judge you have to understand. I train Wing Chun, wrestling and BJJ with top instructors, I have trained with top fight trainers, I have 20 guys in my group fighting MMA, I train, teach and learn from top MMA fighters, my guys have won Pro and Semi Pro MMA fights (with our wing chun) - so I feel I have the background to have an informed view.


These clips are Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun -


Neil Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun punching

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiSYT...eature=related


Wing Chun Boxing -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxkl...eature=related



Chu Sau Lei chi sao demo -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKkp1...eature=related

Best

Alan

[Knifefighter]

Good post Alan. You and your guys are the antithesis of the pretend, theoretical non-fighters saying you are not using "real" WC. Keep up the good work.

[Alan Orr]

WC or any other fighting style won't look 100% like how you practice because in a real dynamic situation you have to adjust for distance, angles, balance, and a ton of other things etc.

I get that.

However you can't call grabbing a guy behind the head and punching him trapping. That is simply ridiculous.

I can tell you objectively and unemotionally why that is not WC trapping. It has nothing to do with how it looks either.

The whole point of trapping, the whole idea is to neutralize your opponents weapons be it hands or feet. So lets say you trap an arm then you have two of your hands against his one. You are safer. Now you have the advantage. That is trapping.

By standing in front of someone, putting one hand behind your opponents head and punching him is not trapping because you are still in the line of fire. He can hit you just as much as you are hitting him. The fight is still an open exchange.

You have no clue bro!

trapping - is controling your opponent.

If you roll in BJJ you will find that pinning and trapping is all about control skills.

Wing Chun is the same. If you can't move well then you are limited and then you are set up.

Its not about trying to hold someones hands so they can't hit you. Thats just holding and hoping! If an opponent can not work their game that are trapped.

This may be just to slow them down or to make them gas from using to much energy etc but in the end its about the result it produces.

[Alan Orr]

Good post Alan. You and your guys are the antithesis of the pretend, theoretical non-fighters. Keep up the good work.

Thanks Dale, keep fighting the good fight bro

[SAAMAG]

Alan,

Can you illustrate for the guys who've not looked into chusaolei stuff what (in originally posted clip) was directly from a wing chun skillset?

[Alan Orr]

Alan,

Can you illustrate for the guys who've not looked into chusaolei stuff what (in originally posted clip) was directly from a wing chun skillset?

Punching Power development

Structure power - ie rooting - base - linking and delinking frame

Balance and reaction to pressure

Positioning

Angles of punching

Cutting punches - control of line of attack

Forward pressure

Don't look for lap and pak of bong sao guys!! These are you blueprints for your own understanding of the space you use around you. They are not blocks etc

If I use a cutting punch on the outside of your arm. Ie a wing chun punch that uses your forearm to pin (trap)as you punch then I quickly punch again. that is the energy of pak and lap - Ie one hand punching and cutting then as it pulls back it draws and the second punch then cuts.

Pak and lap drills are for students to learn the angle, timing, position - then you just throw 2 punches - with good timing, good position, good line control (trapping)

You don't need two hands on one!


best Alan

[Pacman]

Its not about trying to hold someones hands so they can't hit you. Thats just holding and hoping! If an opponent can not work their game that are trapped.

never said anything about holding hands. i said its about neutralizing their attacking weapons like their hands and feet.

if you define WC trapping as basically any method to controlling an opponent so that they cannot work their game 100% then thats great. You can't argue with someone's definition. Its better that understand someone's opinion than agree.

[Pacman]

i think this discussion has diverted to the legitimization of Robert Chu's Wing Chun, which is not the intent of any critique of the video.

Even with the videos and explanations of your WC, I really do not see where in that video ANY of this stuff is used (aside from the questionable headlock and calling a Biu Jee/guillotine choke). Perhaps it is too fast to for me to see, could someone please point it out?

Punching Power development

Structure power - ie rooting - base - linking and delinking frame

Balance and reaction to pressure

Positioning

Angles of punching

Cutting punches - control of line of attack

Forward pressure

Don't look for lap and pak of bong sao guys!! These are you blueprints for your own understanding of the space you use around you. They are not blocks etc

If I use a cutting punch on the outside of your arm. Ie a wing chun punch that uses your forearm to pin (trap)as you punch then I quickly punch again. that is the energy of pak and lap - Ie one hand punching and cutting then as it pulls back it draws and the second punch then cuts.

Pak and lap drills are for students to learn the angle, timing, position - then you just throw 2 punches - with good timing, good position, good line control (trapping)

You don't need two hands on one!


best Alan

[SAAMAG]

i think this discussion has diverted to the legitimization of Robert Chu's Wing Chun, which is not the intent of any critique of the video.

Even with the videos and explanations of your WC, I really do not see where in that video ANY of this stuff is used (aside from the questionable headlock and calling a Biu Jee/guillotine choke). Perhaps it is too fast to for me to see, could someone please point it out?

Well the punching power development isn't something you're going to "see" but rather feel.

The "structure power - ie rooting - base - linking and delinking frame" should be evident with their "presenting" (i.e. placing the hips forward, keeping the back straight, and using proper structure as opposed to muscle to link power from the ground).

Balance is a byproduct of proper stance and structure

Reaction to pressure & positioning, if keeping with the principles of WC should be such that they are maintaining their space and hitting as opportunities arise, not focusing on chasing hands of course, using angled stepping to move into more advantages positions (angles of punching), and using your own attacks as simultaneous defense (cutting punches).

The forward pressure would come from--most evidently anyway--in the idea of "escort what leaves and rush in at loss of contact". Answering an attack, sticking with the opponent, and rushing in when they retreat.

Though to be honest all of that can be seen in just about anyone doing good stand-up fighting.

[Knifefighter]

Though to be honest all of that can be seen in just about anyone doing good stand-up fighting.

Bingo! And that's why it doesn't look that much different from other standup styles when it is done in an effective manner.

[HumbleWCGuy]

That's the thing about Orr's guys. No one is saying they can't fight, but what they are saying is that it's not WC. I used to be one of those people until I did more research on what they do, took a look at their 7 DVD set and therein were the principles of wing chun being used, along with the punches, and varied use of techniques like lan sao and other things. It's not 1800's WC, it's applied WC from an MMA perspective for modern day.

So now I look at it as more of an mma using WC elements type of style, because it's got wing chun in there, just not in the traditional sense

I could not make a general claim about his guys. I can only say what I think of that video; I believe wasn't a great expression of WC. I don't want to make that seem like a bad thing. No one should have to apologize for winning a fight. Style points don't really count for anything accept for in these kinds of debates.

I will check out the videos when i can to see if I change my opinion.

[SAAMAG]

I could not make a general claim about his guys. I can only say what I think of that video; I believe wasn't a great expression of WC. I don't want to make that seem like a bad thing. No one should have to apologize for winning a fight. Style points don't really count for anything accept for in these kinds of debates.

I will check out the videos when i can to see if I change my opinion.

They do things a bit differently, there will be things that you may not agree with, but hopefully more things that you will find helpful. Definitly not what you'll be used to seeing with most wing chun in there. Then again my "internally" biased sifu does a lot of things in the same way. Either way I enjoyed the episodes that I saw, and found them very insightful.

[taai gihk yahn]

seems that with all the talk about WC looking like / not looking like WC, people are forgetting that WC, like any MA, is a path to the top of the mountain, that mountain top being successful in combat against a skilled, resisting opponent; notice that as the mountain gets taller, it's gets narrower, it gets less diverse, the paths start to converge and become less differentiated as they approach the goal; the ****her away you are from that mountain top, the more you can afford individual differentiation, so you have the luxury of stylistic idiosycracies; but when u reach the top, u can't do that - you have to put all that aside to leave only the functional outcome; and that is why when u apply WC or any other art successfully, it's going to all look very similar, because u are at the top of that mountain with someone else, and that is where our intrinsic structural make-up as individuals comes out - certain things are more biomechanically efficient / effective, and it is these techniques that will "come out" in a way that will obviate the stylistic aspects one observes in a controlled environment;

"style" is a template upon which grows and ultimately frees oneself from; to fixate / hold onto the ideal of form, because it's what a style "should" look like, is delusion; if one can fight and it looks like a style, then either the guy u r fighting is a scrub, or there are lots of rules in place that allows one to function that way;