i second that. there's a very wing chun-specific muscles/structure that chi-sao, when done correctly, that no other exercise (i can think of) that comes close to targeting those muscle groups and/or in the same way. it's not a tension, or lifting, it's just a flexible resistance and over time, the amount of load you can "take on" increases and increases..
creates a ridiculously solid structure and adds boom to that punch.
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i think chi sao is a way me practicing certain reflexes to be used in a fight. This is a way of doing there skills as many times as possible in a short time. I find sparing is more about getting in and out. Both are needed. Too much of one you tend to go weird
The speed bag isn't a skill building drill -- you are not developing boxing skill by doing it.
"Sensitivity" is just timing derived from our tactile sense.A drill in general builds certain attributes or skills that are valuable in combat. The skill of touch sensitivity is important to wing chun with respect to it's techniques.
Chi sao permits you to learn and practice various WCK contact skills/movements but not in a context as you will really use them -- as your opponent/partner isn't "feeding" you realistic movement (he is not moving as a whole as he will in fighting). So, the timing/sensitivity you are getting in chi sao is a false one, an unrealistic one. There is no real timing or sensitivity to be had from chi sao.
You don't get better at fighting by pretend fighting.
The real problem with what most people in WCK do is they go about things from the wrong end.Most people here realize the drill for what it is. Then again many do not. As long as a person keeps in mind what the goal of the drill is--and makes sure to be working towards that goal--the drill will be useful. One you stray away from it, its a waste of time (unfortunately this is what most of the YM line has done).
Sorry but this is just (more) hyperbolic and uninformed BS..
You can't train to take the line from those who don't hold it.
You can't do focused and progressive training on close range VT in a generic sparring environment.
You can't train VT tools and techniques in a focused and progressive manner in a generic sparring environment.
This is seen in examples (and there are many) of those who cannot even do these things (basics) in a drill (ChiSao).. Which you have intimated is easy to do..(it is not).. So if so many can't even do this in ChiSao they certainly won't be able to do them in sparring. Moreover, sparring depending on what kind of sparring will encompass a wide range of tactical conditions.. This makes it impossible to FOCUS on close range work because much of the time one will be doing other things, like outside movement, ground, clinch (grappling) etc..
So the purpose of the drills is to provide a platform that amplifies the close range (VT range) and specific VT conditions to work off of.. No one thinks that these are the only conditions one will see in the fight, but they are the conditions VT trains. VT trains those conditions and focuses on certain ranges, tools and conditions that IT operates in and uses.. It does not attempt to train things it does not do... That should be obvious.. as it is true for any style.. Boxing does not focus on ground work.. Boxing does not focus on what VT does, etc..
The drills are the drills and they are great drills when done right.. No one except you has suggested that these drills are the end of the training; no one except you has suggested that these drills somehow are fighting..or sparring..
Most of your objections about the drills would be just as true for GorSao, or simply VT vs VT sparring...
The idea is progression, starting with a lower stress, low complexity environment and then adding more as the student progresses.. Again, we see that most folks can't even express many of VT's elements in a drill.. And if they can't do that, well then we know they won't be able to do it in sparring.. VT is a smart progressive training system..that is great for what it is, progressive VT training.
Simple as that..
Jim Hawkins
M Y V T K F
"You should have kicked him in the ball_..."—Sifu
The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
-sun tzu
The speed bag is only a skill building drill. Hand eye coordination is a skill which can be developed and improved. Relaxed but fast and accurate hand positioning is a skill to be developed and improved. It's got some corollary benefits, but primarily a skill improvement device.
The ideas are directly linked to combat, even if the techniques are applied slightly differently while hitting it. What is boxing really?? Hitting a moving target with your hands trying to cause as much damage as possible (or score points) while receiving as little in return as possible. The speed bag is as much a skill building exercise as the floor to ceiling or hitting a heavy bag.
THe amount of skill you take out of an exercise, or the measure of what you learn through a given exercise depends on your focus and application during the drill.
The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
-sun tzu
Whether you see the drills as "flawed" depends on what you believe they do.
If you see the WCK drills as developing fighting skills (by doing the drills, you can then perform the actions in fighting), then they are flawed since they don't and can't do that.
If, however, you see them ONLY as a platform for learning the actions (techniques, movements, etc.) of WCK, then they aren't flawed.
That's not a skill -- a skill is your ability to perform a task with max certainty and min time/effort. Coordination is an attribute that goes into skill.
Who cares if "ideas" are directly related to "combat"? You could say that about almost anything.The ideas are directly linked to combat,
Obviously you haven't trained under a good boxing coach -- boxing is much, much more than that and is very sophisticated. But, you can't appreciate that by NOT doing it.even if the techniques are applied slightly differently while hitting it. What is boxing really?? Hitting a moving target with your hands trying to cause as much damage as possible (or score points) while receiving as little in return as possible. The speed bag is as much a skill building exercise as the floor to ceiling or hitting a heavy bag.
Hitting the heavy bag isn't a skill building drill either -- it is a conditioning drill.
No, you ONLY develop skill by and through performing that skill itself. How do you develop skill at riding a bike or swimming or surfing or any other athletic activity? By and through the performance of the activity. It's no different with WCK.THe amount of skill you take out of an exercise, or the measure of what you learn through a given exercise depends on your focus and application during the drill.
Last edited by t_niehoff; 04-15-2010 at 06:25 AM.
Every functional martial art (boxing, BJJ, judo, MT, sambo, wrestling, etc.) makes sparring the core learning/training platform.
Just as they do, you can make sparring a progressive and focused activity -- IF YOU KNOW HOW.
Chi sao in many ways is counter-productive -- it gives you a false sense of WCK as you are only practicing unrealsitic WCK when you do it.This is seen in examples (and there are many) of those who cannot even do these things (basics) in a drill (ChiSao).. Which you have intimated is easy to do..(it is not).. So if so many can't even do this in ChiSao they certainly won't be able to do them in sparring. Moreover, sparring depending on what kind of sparring will encompass a wide range of tactical conditions.. This makes it impossible to FOCUS on close range work because much of the time one will be doing other things, like outside movement, ground, clinch (grappling) etc..
You can start off by teaching trainees HOW TO USE the basic strategic framework of WCK (the faat), HOW TO USE the basic skills to execute that game plan, and then let them practice actually DOING it against a genuinely resisting opponent (sparring), and then build off that basic framework. That's what we do.
Of course, this presumes that the instructor himself knows the basic strategic framework, knows how to use the fundamental skills to execute it, etc.
I agree with you. But, instead of using a platform that is unrealistic and doesn't develop fighting skills -- look, people like TST, etc. have been doing chi sao their entire lives and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, doesn't that tell you that chi sao doesn't develop skill?-- why not use a realistic platform? Why not practice doing it exactly like you will, under the same conditions, the same context, etc.? In that way, your drilling looks exactly like your fighting.So the purpose of the drills is to provide a platform that amplifies the close range (VT range) and specific VT conditions to work off of.. No one thinks that these are the only conditions one will see in the fight, but they are the conditions VT trains. VT trains those conditions and focuses on certain ranges, tools and conditions that IT operates in and uses.. It does not attempt to train things it does not do... That should be obvious.. as it is true for any style.. Boxing does not focus on ground work.. Boxing does not focus on what VT does, etc..
And because they are not fighting/sparring they cannot develop fighting skills. That's the whole point. You don't learn to fight and develop fighting skills by NOT fighting. So these drills are mainly a waste of time. I say "mainly" since they are fine as an introduction, a way to learn the actions themselves (develop coordination, etc.). But once you have that and are comfortable doing the action, it is time to move on -- after that the drill becomes a disease. And, you don't need to learn that way. As the functional arts show us, there is a better way.The drills are the drills and they are great drills when done right.. No one except you has suggested that these drills are the end of the training; no one except you has suggested that these drills somehow are fighting..or sparring..
It's true on anything that isn't realistic.Most of your objections about the drills would be just as true for GorSao, or simply VT vs VT sparring...
The trouble is there is NO progression with unrealisitic training, it is an illusion.The idea is progression, starting with a lower stress, low complexity environment and then adding more as the student progresses.. Again, we see that most folks can't even express many of VT's elements in a drill.. And if they can't do that, well then we know they won't be able to do it in sparring.. VT is a smart progressive training system..that is great for what it is, progressive VT training.
Simple as that..
Last edited by t_niehoff; 04-15-2010 at 05:25 AM.
Thank you Zenmind!
Learning WCK is like learning a foreign language in school. You learn phrases, pick up practice dialogues, take tests, but when it comes down to it - can you really speak the language?
I learned French for 5 years in Jr. High and High School. I read some books in French, and at times, I've flown AirFrance for 17 hours, listened to lectures of French speaking acupuncturists with English translation, watch French movies, and when I was in Paris, I struggled and stammered to find where my luggage was... LOL! And in Canada, my French was ridiculed! I admit, my spoken French and grammar is terrible.
So one can learn something, but it is not natural. Perhaps because I already am bilingual it is my excuse, and perhaps if someday I live in a French speaking country, I can draw upon it.
WCK not practiced well and not learned well will be like my lousy French and would be BS.