a video clip for your viewing pleasure

[wkmark]

You can't judge fighting by chi sao. And making chi sao into a competition proves nothing. So for me, these vids prove nothing. Are the following issues addressed?

How would either man do against long range jabs, stiff leads, crosses, overhands - and kicks to the body or legs?
Shorter range hooks and uppercuts?
Neck ties followed by knees at close quarters? Elbow strikes from close quarters?
Wrestling/grappling clinching meant to set up shots and takedowns?
Longer range leads, crosses, and overhands that set up shoots to the legs?

NONE OF THESE QUESTIONS GET ANSWERED IN THESE CLIPS.

But it's just chi sao you might say - and I respond with: "So what is this going to teach you against all that I mentioned earlier?

Answer: Not really that much.

Because chi sao just deals with a limited amount of tools that are used only in a certain range.

NOW DON'T GET ME WRONG: I believe in chi sao training as you can gain certain skills, work with certain principles, develop certain attributes and techniques from it, but for every hour of chi sao you do - you better be doing at least 3 hours of all out sparring - otherwise you're really kidding yourself.

And the way these guys came at each other when not in the close chi sao range - forget it. They'd be eating big time punches, kicks, and shots to the legs from other types of fighters.

Perhaps I was not clear in my video description. This was one of our exercise that we do to work on balance, timing, distance. Nowhere does it mention that this resembles real fighting.

We Do spar so rest assured, we are testing to see what works and what doesn't.

[wkmark]

Act like an @sshole much? Oh wait...what am I saying?! I forgot who I was talking to.

1) Drills stop at padded walls too, even in MMA gyms.
2) Trying to keep mirrors from breaking is nothing short of well...smart.
3) Mirrors can be fixed.

The guy was just saying that if they don't have pads and one of the mirrors breaks from contact, then so be it. They're not sue-happy like Americans are. That was the point.

Thank you. Point 2 & 3 and the rest of the comments was what i was referring to in regards to the padded walls vs Mirrors.

[anerlich]

For what it was, it looked OK to me. I think it's impossible to draw any conclusions of any kind from this.

The criticism about mirrors and pads is pretty pointless. You do the best you can with what you have. You probably don't need padding unless you are practicing takedowns and groundfighting regularly. I only posted about that in your defense, really.

It really just boils down to the fact that you don't like me because I have shown you to be a clueless chump.

That only happened in your dreams. If I dislike you, it's because you're unlikeable.

[wkmark]

I agree with what you're saying completely, it (a wall) is a very real thing to contend with. Environment plays a significant role in tactics.

But to straight up call someone a liar when you simply misinterpreted the message is an ******* thing to do. No wonder people get a bad taste when they come to this forum. They get berated by someone who doesn't practice wing chun and only serves up negativity. Regardless of whether his repetitive message is legit, his method is uncalled for.

the guy who posted the vid never said they go around breaking glass...you guys just read between the lines to take it that way, at least I got a completely different message.

Again, Thank You.

I arrive at this forum because it seems to be a bit more active than some of the other forums. To be called a liar and what nots.. honestly it doesn't bother me much. I am not in third grade. You have your views and I respect that. Again as for mirror VS padded walls, um..that wasn't the point for my video at all. We train the same way no matter If there was pads or mirrors.

As for full out sparring with padded walls and rings.. etc... sure there are plenty of places that have that and it serves that purpose for MMA or boxing or any grappling arts. For local Kung Fu places here in HK, we have nice places and we have some really really old buildings that may just have wooden/ concrete walls. But to walk into one of those and challenge them by saying since you don't have padded walls then you are not full sparring is just asking for yourself to get grind up and thrown out the window. There are some places in HK that looks dodgy as heck but no way would I think those people who train there cannot fight for crap.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The first thing you really need to do is drop the Chi Sao thing and get on with sparing. You don't have to go for brains, just light contact will work. You need to get completely away from this Chi Sao play thing or you will never be able to use it properly. I can garantee you that if you get into a confrontation in a parking lot somewhere the guy is not going to Chi Sao you. He is going to jump on you and beat the hell out of you. Learn to fight.

[wkmark]

The first thing you really need to do is drop the Chi Sao thing and get on with sparing. You don't have to go for brains, just light contact will work. You need to get completely away from this Chi Sao play thing or you will never be able to use it properly. I can garantee you that if you get into a confrontation in a parking lot somewhere the guy is not going to Chi Sao you. He is going to jump on you and beat the hell out of you. Learn to fight.

Again, this "Gwoh Sau" thing was only one of our exercises that we do. It is NOT saying that If I do this well I can fight well. It's an exercise to work on timing, balance, etc. Light contact sparring and Full contact sparring is essential as well. I didn't put up a video does not mean that we don't do contact sparring.

As for confrontation, yes in a confrontation you are not trying to Chi Sao with the other person. You are trying to either control the person or Hit the person. Anyone who learns Wing Chun/ Ving Tsun and thinks that in a fight all they have to do it Chi Sao is sure going to get a rude awakening.

[YungChun]

Thanks you for your comments and views. What we are doing in this is controlled "Gwoh Sau" trying to move in to center line...

I do understand the long range issues.. it is something that we are working on using boxing gloves, MMA gloves as well as full face mask.

That sounds good but I'd suggest using the smallest gloves possible, such as NHB type gloves... The larger the gloves the more dramatically will it change the dynamics of what you're doing... (ability to use VT hands/tools--space needed for taking the line, etc)...

As a compromise some folks have tried using open hands to face (you can still use a mouthpiece, and close or open strikes to the body)...

Either way the more contact the better.

IMO "torksao"? should be avoided as well, in favor of forearm or wrist contact (correct use of fook), as the use of the palm to mush and control the opponent isn't helpful to either partner..

And of course I would try to emphasize fansao as much as possible..(continuity and maintaining control of the line through to finish)

[YungChun]

No footwork on the planet will keep in range if your opponent decides to back away or change the angle if it's big enough.

If you have the range footwork can certainly keep you there..

That's why WC folk have a hard time with fighting/sparring other martial arts. They're told (and trained in the Chi Sau) to have this forward pressure and to constantly attack.

ChiSao isn't really about constantly attacking it's a fight for position...and the line--a drill..

Their Chi Sau opponent is doing the same - staying at the preferred WC range. It's easy to apply the WC stuff to other WC folk or other similar arts, Preying Mantis, etc because of the similar behaviour.

It's as easy or as hard as your opponent makes it.

But what about a Muay Thai practitioner? I TKD expert who wants to back away all the time and pick you apart? WC as a system and as Chi Sau traditionally goes doesn't teach us an outside game at all.

VT no outside game?

Whole lot of leg moves for no outside game..

VT's most distant weapon..a side kick..
VT's nearest weapon..a shoulder butt..

Lot's in between..

In a duel or match setting you have to set them up... You have to treat the outside as a key part of the game... Your greatest weapon on the outside is your brain.. Simply chasing anyone around will only set up his game if he has one....... (spend some time looking at the outside game..and the options available)

Keep in mind that arts like Kyokushin which have plenty of good fighters, don't have many or any pre-packaged bridge moves, contact drills, concepts/tactics, etc, and simply fight using whatever tools, moves they can..

VT has more (stuff) but then folks complain about things that are missing....... In reality there is more in VT than in most (arts) to get in there and do the (sparring) work..

[Ultimatewingchun]

wkmark:

Let me take it a bit further than what I said on my earlier post:

Gear up fully and start out light-to-medium contact...on the way to much heavier contact. And yes, the smaller the gloves the better.

Make sure you're also using kicks to the body and legs, elbow and knee strikes, etc. And lots of work going from long range to short range, backing out when necessary, etc.

And make it your business to learn and/or get others who've already learned moves from other styles - and work against those things constantly. How often will you run up against another wing chun fighter in a possible real encounter?

Chi sao/gor sao training is fine, but recognize it for what it is - and always be mindful of what it isn't.

But the big thing is this: spontaneous medium-to-heavy contact sparring should become the SUN in your world, and everything else (chi sao, forms, drills, wooden dummy) is a planet revolving around (and subservient to) that SUN.

[wkmark]

wkmark:

Let me take it a bit further than what I said on my earlier post:

Gear up fully and start out light-to-medium contact...on the way to much heavier contact. And yes, the smaller the gloves the better.

Make sure you're also using kicks to the body and legs, elbow and knee strikes, etc. And lots of work going from long range to short range, backing out when necessary, etc.

And make it your business to learn and/or get others who've already learned moves from other styles - and work against those things constantly. How often will you run up against another wing chun fighter in a possible real encounter?

Chi sao/gor sao training is fine, but recognize it for what it is - and always be mindful of what it isn't.

But the big thing is this: spontaneous medium-to-heavy contact sparring should become the SUN in your world, and everything else (chi sao, forms, drills, wooden dummy) is a planet revolving around (and subservient to) that SUN.

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. What you have mentioned is indeed the road we are moving towards as well.

[shawchemical]

LOL @ all the clueless b.s. about mirrors, that they represent more precision, more realism, less expensive than putting some basic padding up, etc.

And you guys wonder how we know who the theoretical non-fighters are.

Yep, everyone knows you're full of ****.

[shawchemical]

No, no they don't.

Having mirrors up where you have dedicated full contact sparring is nothing short of well....stupid. Which is kind of why I commented on it as standard practice. It kind of indicates that full contact sparring seldom to never occurs.

Any piece of glass over 6' x 6' has a shear force that can open people up from head to toe. That's the main concern, not the stupid piece of glass, which while it can be fixed, is relatively expensive to do so.

My read on that was he was trying to act like they do a lot of full contact sparring when they actually don't.

Do you actually understand what shear force is??

It doesn't sound like it. Are you claiming that glass is shear thinning or shear thickening??

[MOSHE]

I would like to share with you all a recent video clip of our practice. Yes, i know there are some minor issues here and there; good thing for videos so i that i can look back and examine it myself. Feel free to make constructive comments or if you have a question, i will try to answer it as best as I could.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhTphaxJuUg

thats not shi sao !!!

[punchdrunk]

welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing a clip of your training.
You asked for criticism and your getting it by the truck load, please don't let it scare you off... If I may offer an idea ... not an insult... I'd say loosen up and relax in your training, don't be so text book with pak sao or lap sao or whatever. When you move or control your partners bridge you should control their stance as well. Then strikes are more natural and not straight arms kept full of tension. Again not a criticism, just ideas I play with in my training. Good control of the centerline is shown in the chi sao clip, use that to control your partners balance as well.
Again welcome, we all look forward to your contributions.

[Knifefighter]

I didn't put up a video does not mean that we don't do contact sparring.

More than likely, that's exactly what it means. People who put up vids of demos, but no sparring, generally don't spar.