The Biggest Problem with Wing Chun

[Ultimatewingchun]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

And I believe it's the ultra secretive nature of the art historically - combined with giant egos...

that has made the art - as a whole - suffer.

Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

And then everybody scrambled in some way or another to see what they had, what the other guy had, what they missed, what could they learn to surpass the guy standing next to them, and on, and on.

And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

And very similar things have gone on, it would seem, in other wing chun lineages.

Secrecy + Giant egos = Problems.

What a mess!

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

[HumbleWCGuy]

As meager as the requirement sounds, if every instructor were required to have just one smoker under their belt before being ranked, it would change the nature of the art dramatically. If people actually fought, there would be a lot more agreement on how to do things. There are far more ways to get your A$$ kicked than there are to win a fights.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That is one way to attempt to tackle the secrecy issue, but the giant ego thing is something else.

[HumbleWCGuy]

I don't see too many TWC instructors having secrets. It is a good marketing tool though. Outsiders will flock to find the secret ingredient and students will hang around for the instructor to reveal the secret. Some instructor like to reveal, "secret never before seen techniques," as a way to import other martial arts ideas into their "100% authentic TWC?'


There is always going to be ego involved. Everyone should believe that their own way is the best.

[YungChun]

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

Not a gosh darn thing....

That's why in the end it's up to each person with their own work, research, intelligence and experience, to go out and find the answers themselves...

Folks will find their own way for better or worse.. The arguments will continue unless and until one way surpasses all others in performance to a high degree in fighting and so far this has not happened.

Still the art evolves..

[Wayfaring]

driving towards the competitions are a good thing. training in a mma or full contact environment is another. those 2 things tend to keep the ego in check. also with the secrecy if something is working consistently in that environment everyone learns it - it helps with that too.

i'd say just keep moving towards that. when people put things to test it removes delusion, ego and a lot of that undesirable stuff.

[sihing]

driving towards the competitions are a good thing. training in a mma or full contact environment is another. those 2 things tend to keep the ego in check. also with the secrecy if something is working consistently in that environment everyone learns it - it helps with that too.

i'd say just keep moving towards that. when people put things to test it removes delusion, ego and a lot of that undesirable stuff.

I agree, that testing your training is a good thing, but to say that it keeps the ego in check, well maybe in regards to the people that are kicking your ass it does, but overall no it doesn't, which is clearly evident by the constant posting by people not even training in WC that post here constantly trying to change our mindset about what we are doing, lol...Testing does one thing, it reveals to the individual what he/she needs to work on or what is good within their skill set.

The biggest problem in Wing Chun today is too much thinking, too much posting and too much comparison to other arts. Just train, spar, realize/actualize all of it, contimplate the results to yourself and your coach/sifu, repeat repeat repeat up until you are personally satisfied with your skills, without the need or desire to compare it to what you see on youtube or spike tv...


James

[YungChun]

The biggest problem in Wing Chun today is too much thinking, too much posting and too much comparison to other arts. Just train, spar, realize/actualize all of it, contimplate the results to yourself and your coach/sifu, repeat repeat repeat up until you are personally satisfied with your skills, without the need or desire to compare it to what you see on youtube or spike tv...

That's somewhat hyperbolic IMO..

IMO the problems with the art don't stem from an abundance of posting or thinking.. Good thinking and good posting may well help the art..

Training more and more is great but it needs to be the right kind of training and if VT then with the right guidance....

In the end the crap will be the first to go.... VT is still evolving albeit perhaps having taken a few steps backward first..

[Frost]

...is the fact that, granted basically every martial art has its intercine squabbles - but this art seems to be the champion of such disputes.

And I believe it's the ultra secretive nature of the art historically - combined with giant egos...

that has made the art - as a whole - suffer.

Let's take the Yip Man lineage for example. As great a martial artist as he probably was - he only taught people bits-and-pieces of the art, and most of the instruction in his school was left to whatever senior students were in attendance at any given point in time.

And we all know by now that behind-closed-doors he was said to have taught this to that person...the next guy maybe something else, a third guy got pieces the first two didn't get, and so on.

And then everybody scrambled in some way or another to see what they had, what the other guy had, what they missed, what could they learn to surpass the guy standing next to them, and on, and on.

And from the point of view of the instructor who engaged in this kind of teaching - this was somehow seen as a way to "protect the rice bowl" - as the saying used to go. (Keep the students coming back to fill your rice bowl with more).

And very similar things have gone on, it would seem, in other wing chun lineages.

Secrecy + Giant egos = Problems.

What a mess!

I wonder, what can be done in 2010 to fix this?

It’s easy compete in MMA events

Honestly though the only way to get rid of all the secrecy and bullsh*t in any art is to implement some form of full contact competitive environment, humbles idea is a good start (as is wayfrings idea of sparring and training in an MMA environment) but wing Chun needs its own full contact environment/tournament. It’s only through repetitive and frequent competition that you can see a schools true weakness and strength and whether it is a good school or not.

It’s easy to see if a boxing/Thai/BJJ school is good because you can see their competition records, the same goes for some forms of karate and even TKD its hard to sell the whole secret/deadly techniques if there is an open format for all the schools to compete in, people can see who is a good teacher and where the good schools are. Without a competition format it’s too easy to use the whole secret skills bull.

Note not everyone has to compete but the school itself has to turn out competitors, be it in MMA/ full contact kickboxing, san shou or even something like manup stand up or whatever it’s called that phils guys compete in.

[t_niehoff]

It’s easy compete in MMA events

It's even easier to go train at a good MMA gym, or get a MMA fighter to come to your school for privates (which is quite inexpensive when you spread the cost).

Honestly though the only way to get rid of all the secrecy and bullsh*t in any art is to implement some form of full contact competitive environment,

No, the ONLY way to get rid of bullsh1t (and secrecy is part of the bullsh1t) is through HOW YOU TRAIN. Sound athletic )"alive") training exposes bullsh1t.

Competition is often the end result of that training, but it's not the competition that exposes the bullsh1t, it is the training process. It's not a single boxing competitive match (a small sample) that exposes bullsh1t, it is the hundreds of hours of sparring in training (the HUGE sample) that exposes it.

humbles idea is a good start (as is wayfrings idea of sparring and training in an MMA environment) but wing Chun needs its own full contact environment/tournament. It’s only through repetitive and frequent competition that you can see a schools true weakness and strength and whether it is a good school or not.

On its face that sounds good, but is really not a very good idea. Using this reasoning, tai ji should have its own full contact competitions, every form of TCMA should have theirs, every karate style theirs, etc. So what you end up with is tons of different "competitions", with lots of poor fighters competing, etc. While this may be one way to over a very long time develop an art, there is an easier way. Good, proven fighters already exist, venues to meet and train with them already exist.

It’s easy to see if a boxing/Thai/BJJ school is good because you can see their competition records, the same goes for some forms of karate and even TKD its hard to sell the whole secret/deadly techniques if there is an open format for all the schools to compete in, people can see who is a good teacher and where the good schools are. Without a competition format it’s too easy to use the whole secret skills bull.

Good, sound athletic training will refute the whole "secret skills bull". The Dog Brothers' motto,"If you see it taught, you see it fought" exemplifies this -- imagine if a WCK instructor actually ONLY taught what he could consistently and successfully do while fighting/sparring. How many masters and grandmasters would there be?

Note not everyone has to compete but the school itself has to turn out competitors, be it in MMA/ full contact kickboxing, san shou or even something like manup stand up or whatever it’s called that phils guys compete in.

And then you end up with bad 80s karate-style tournaments like Phil's guys compete in -- where scrubs "fight" scrubs. And then successful scrubs use this as evidence that they are "good." This is precisely what the karate guys did in the 60s and 70s.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel -- all we need to do is begin to train like all good fighters train, and to teach like good fighters and fight trainers teach. To do that, however, requires that we actually go train with good fighters and fight trainers.

BTW, it's ironic that someone who will never go and actually train with good fighters (yet will teach their arts without any training) complains about secrecy and "ego". Why not go train with good fighters except to preserve your precious ego?

[Frost]

It's even easier to go train at a good MMA gym, or get a MMA fighter to come to your school for privates (which is quite inexpensive when you spread the cost).



No, the ONLY way to get rid of bullsh1t (and secrecy is part of the bullsh1t) is through HOW YOU TRAIN. Sound athletic )"alive") training exposes bullsh1t.

Competition is often the end result of that training, but it's not the competition that exposes the bullsh1t, it is the training process. It's not a single boxing competitive match (a small sample) that exposes bullsh1t, it is the hundreds of hours of sparring in training (the HUGE sample) that exposes it.



On its face that sounds good, but is really not a very good idea. Using this reasoning, tai ji should have its own full contact competitions, every form of TCMA should have theirs, every karate style theirs, etc. So what you end up with is tons of different "competitions", with lots of poor fighters competing, etc. While this may be one way to over a very long time develop an art, there is an easier way. Good, proven fighters already exist, venues to meet and train with them already exist.



Good, sound athletic training will refute the whole "secret skills bull". The Dog Brothers' motto,"If you see it taught, you see it fought" exemplifies this -- imagine if a WCK instructor actually ONLY taught what he could consistently and successfully do while fighting/sparring. How many masters and grandmasters would there be?



And then you end up with bad 80s karate-style tournaments like Phil's guys compete in -- where scrubs "fight" scrubs. And then successful scrubs use this as evidence that they are "good." This is precisely what the karate guys did in the 60s and 70s.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel -- all we need to do is begin to train like all good fighters train, and to teach like good fighters and fight trainers teach. To do that, however, requires that we actually go train with good fighters and fight trainers.

BTW, it's ironic that someone who will never go and actually train with good fighters (yet will teach their arts without any training) complains about secrecy and "ego". Why not go train with good fighters except to preserve your precious ego?

I agree it would be better if they competed in MMA rather than wing chuns own league, but the question was how to get rid of the secrecy etc and having a form of fighting competition that all wingchun styles trained for and competed in would get rid of this secrecy wouldn't you agree, much as kykashin karate guys compete in full contact knock down tournaments...I think as fighters they would be better served in an mma or full Thai style competition, but having their own competition format allows students to see where the good fighters train and gets rid of all the bullsh*t.

Saying just go and compete in MMA is fine but the arguements will come thick and fast, the rules hurt wing chun, the gloves etc disadvantage its practicioners and so on and so on, having its own competition format would get rid of a lot of these excuses

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good, sound athletic training will refute the whole "secret skills bull". The Dog Brothers' motto,"If you see it taught, you see it fought" exemplifies this -- imagine if a WCK instructor actually ONLY taught what he could consistently and successfully do while fighting/sparring. How many masters and grandmasters would there be?

See, that there people is THE THING.
Lineages and what this matter did or didn't do mean NOTHING.
It is WHAT YOU CAN DO.
There are no secret trainings that are worth anymore than to good core fundamentals.
The core is all we have, everything is built from THAT CORE and if the core is "rotten", well, all the "uber-deadly" in the world won't save it.
I can tell you this:
All the secret training and special training and advanced training in the world, still won't say you if you get a solid right cross to the jaw, period.

[t_niehoff]

I agree it would be better if they competed in MMA rather than wing chuns own league, but the question was how to get rid of the secrecy etc and having a form of fighting competition that all wingchun styles trained for and competed in would get rid of this secrecy wouldn't you agree,

Isn't it interesting that WCK people will do anything, come up with any excuse, etc. to avoid training/sparring with good, proven fighters? What does that tell you?

"Secrecy" isn't an issue IMO. As soon as someone starts talking secrecy, you know it is bullsh1t.

Competitions won't get rid of this sort of nonsense -- you will still have people doing things like "this is for competition" and THIS is "THE secret stuff that we keep behind closed doors."

What exposes bullsh1t is good, solid athletic training (with very good people) because by doing that, by going through that process, you will come to see for yourself what is and what is not bullsh1t.

I've cited this before, and I think it really explains things well:

http://caneprevost.wordpress.com/200...ullsh1t-meter/ (replace bullsh1t with the correct spelling to get the link to work)

much as kykashin karate guys compete in full contact knock down tournaments...

You think kyukushinkai is bereft of bullsh1t, do you?

I think as fighters they would be better served in an mma or full Thai style competition, but having their own competition format allows students to see where the good fighters train and gets rid of all the bullsh*t.

It's not the competition that gets rid of bullsh1t -- it's already gone long before the competitors compete. The PROCESS of sound, athletic training is what eliminates it. It's not like boxing or BJJ or wrestling competitions ferret out the bullsh1t or the nonsense or what works or doesn't work -- the hundreds of hours of sound, athletic training, the core being sparring, has already pruned that tree.

Saying just go and compete in MMA is fine but the arguements will come thick and fast, the rules hurt wing chun, the gloves etc disadvantage its practicioners and so on and so on, having its own competition format would get rid of a lot of these excuses

I'm not saying just go and fight in MMA, I'm saying to go and train/spar with really good fighters -- and learn from them how to effectively train. If you think, for example, that you have good ground skills, you don't need to go to compete at NAGA or the Pan Ams, you can just go train at a good BJJ school and you'll see.

When people actually go train with good, proven fighters, the bullsh1t ends.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You think kyukushinkai is bereft of bullsh1t, do you?

The amount of BS in Kyokushin can be pretty high.

[Frost]

The amount of BS in Kyokushin can be pretty high.

as high as the level of BS in arts that don't have a competition eliment, like say wing chun, southern mantis etc?

im not saying there isn't secrecy and BS in these arts, but having a full contact enviroment cuts down on the level of BS, and where the BS is its pretty easy to spot, would you listen to a kyokushin instructor who never produced a fighter, or a grappling coach that never entered a team in a competition?