WC teachers would have nothing to teach if...

[MysteriousPower]

My teacher was an actual street fighter and not the kind that had the "occasional gang fight.". He fought daily for years and survived many gang fights. He actually used bil gee in peoples' eyes and throats and groin strikes. He was mainly a striker and used joint locks regularly mixed with striking. I have often wondered why he never utilized body throws.

T and anyone else,
Why would a teacher who obviously knew how to fight teach the same way as everyone else? It has never made sense to me.

[Kansuke]

My teacher was an actual street fighter and not the kind that had the "occasional gang fight.". He fought daily for years and survived many gang fights. He actually used bil gee in peoples' eyes and throats and groin strikes. He was mainly a striker and used joint locks regularly mixed with striking. I have often wondered why he never utilized body throws.

T and anyone else,
Why would a teacher who obviously knew how to fight teach the same way as everyone else? It has never made sense to me.

How many quarters did you have to put into him to play?

[MysteriousPower]

It is hard to believe but such individuals do exist. These men were born tough and lived in tough environments. When these men see mma fights they look at it and say, "That is not real fighting. Real fighting is much more violent and a lot less technique based.". IMO it would make sense that these teachers know the value of sparring and pressure testing. Some though just end up teaching the same tired curriculum. It is a mystery.

[Sardinkahnikov]

My teacher was an actual street fighter and not the kind that had the "occasional gang fight.". He fought daily for years and survived many gang fights.

How many quarters did you have to put into him to play?

Yeah, it was the first thing that came in mind when I read MysteriousPower's post
Then again I'm a huge nerd.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is hard to believe but such individuals do exist. These men were born tough and lived in tough environments. When these men see mma fights they look at it and say, "That is not real fighting. Real fighting is much more violent and a lot less technique based.". IMO it would make sense that these teachers know the value of sparring and pressure testing. Some though just end up teaching the same tired curriculum. It is a mystery.

Teachers teach what their students want to learn.

[wkmark]

If we had more video of all those rooftop fights from the Hong Kong Yip Man days I think it would be very telling on how wc was ACTUALLY used in fighting. I have only seen a 5 second clip of Bruce Lee during one a "fight.". I put fight in quotes because it could have been a gathering of friends. Who knows. But actual footage would be nice. I think it would show wc for what it is: A different flair of kickboxing or kickboxing with extra tricks in it.

Victor, do you have access to any old footage via William Cheung?

The roof top fight on youtube was not of Bruce Lee, FYI. It was of Wu Chan Nam after about 3 months of Wing Chun Training with Sifu Wong Shun Leung. Sihing Wu Chan Nam has confirmed this.

[Ultimatewingchun]

There is no footage of William Cheung from those days that I am aware of.

[wkmark]

I do not think body structure is bs but I think that spending time training it is utter nonsense. In judo and shuai jiao they do not spend time pushing on each other to see if they can withstand the push in a static stance. They just throw each other! A first year judo man would destroy a frat year wc man.

WC spends years doing drills that are fit for toddlers. The curriculum that T speaks of us overused and in many cases outdated.

I play Ice Hockey and have been for quite some time and every time we had practice we drilled on the most basic and most boring things. Even the most advanced NHL players will do drills which are fit for toddlers, which is Skating, passing the puck and learning to give and take hits. You will not learn anything if all we did was scrimmage and play games without mastering the basics.

As for body structure, it applies to all sports. The body checks/ pushing and power comes from doing drills. We don't learn that just by scrimmaging or just by playing games.

[MysteriousPower]

I play Ice Hockey and have been for quite some time and every time we had practice we drilled on the most basic and most boring things. Even the most advanced NHL players will do drills which are fit for toddlers, which is Skating, passing the puck and learning to give and take hits. You will not learn anything if all we did was scrimmage and play games without mastering the basics.

As for body structure, it applies to all sports. The body checks/ pushing and power comes from doing drills. We don't learn that just by scrimmaging or just by playing games.

The basic drills you are talking about for hockey sound like they are drilled exactly. As they are used. Skating is a good example of this. For wc I feel like the basic drills are practiced one way and then somehow students are expected to spar/ fight with them. The drills are not practiced in a way they can be used.

[m1k3]

I play Ice Hockey and have been for quite some time and every time we had practice we drilled on the most basic and most boring things. Even the most advanced NHL players will do drills which are fit for toddlers, which is Skating, passing the puck and learning to give and take hits. You will not learn anything if all we did was scrimmage and play games without mastering the basics.

As for body structure, it applies to all sports. The body checks/ pushing and power comes from doing drills. We don't learn that just by scrimmaging or just by playing games.

The drills for hockey are good. The difference would be if your hockey coach made you do things like stand in a horse stance while someone pushed you, on ice of course. Or stand in a horse stance and shoot or pass the puck. You don't drill that because you don't do that in a game.

It is perfectly legit to isolate game skills and to drill them. It is not legit to drill skills that have no relevance to the game.

The same goes for the fight game also.

[MysteriousPower]

The drills for hockey are good. The difference would be if your hockey coach made you do things like stand in a horse stance while someone pushed you, on ice of course. Or stand in a horse stance and shoot or pass the puck. You don't drill that because you don't do that in a game.

It is perfectly legit to isolate game skills and to drill them. It is not legit to drill skills that have no relevance to the game.

The same goes for the fight game also.

Wkmark and m113,
those were excellent posts.

[chusauli]

How much of a class I teach structure drills?

If there is a two hour class, perhaps 5-10 minutes of it.

How much of a class is spent drilling usage of structure?

The remainder of the class...

In fact, the WCK I teach is based all upon the usage of the structure - the function. This creates the actual form or how it looks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How much of a class I teach structure drills?

If there is a two hour class, perhaps 5-10 minutes of it.

How much of a class is spent drilling usage of structure?

The remainder of the class...

In fact, the WCK I teach is based all upon the usage of the structure - the function. This creates the actual form or how it looks.

I gotta ask you this Robert and I have been meaning to for a bit, WHY do you feel you NEED to teach structure in WCK?

[chusauli]

I gotta ask you this Robert and I have been meaning to for a bit, WHY do you feel you NEED to teach structure in WCK?

Paul,

Good question - it has everything to do with feeling the power and root and being connected. It is a neglected aspect of training that must be drilled, because that is WCK, for me.

Without it, WCK is nothing less than poor kickboxing, short hand Karate, or economical movement Kenpo.

WCK is not patty cake, and Chi Sao is not slap fighting. WCK without structure (alignment, body mechanics, etc.) is empty and not worth practicing. It would be like doing lousy Fujian boxing - a semblence of the same moves, but without the core root that makes it go. The body is so big in comparison to the arms. WHy not tap that power?

If I had to change a flat, I would rather use my whole body, than just my arms alone. Much of my early training only involved the arms, or what I could muster, but without the potential of the body, it was a shell.

It would be like having the Batmobile - but a movie version that needs to be pulled, and only gadgets that look good onscreen.

It'd be like having a woman, but without the sex.

Hope I made this clear.

[LoneTiger108]

Lol. I guess since my opinins do not fit your wc world view my sifu was not skillful and neither am I.

Your opinions are perfectly acceptable, I just thought that if you compare all drills you have practised to be suitable for toddlers then you may have missed the point of drilling.

Have you touched hands with a skillful wc sifu? Are you skillful.
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Then put up a video of yourself sparring with wc. All such arguments fall apart when the video challenge is thrown.

I believe I am skillful in Wing Chun, and my Sifu is too. I honestly meant no disrespect here.

I find it strange to read of WCK students who are not confident with their art and use other methods to fill in the gaps they experience in their training. Don't get me wrong here either, as I too remember my days of self doubt. This has smoothed out over the years as I have never stopped learning and the training did take some time to settle into my little frame!

As for the sparring clips, I've said before that sparring needs a partner and these days I train alone for the most part due to my work and family committments.

FWIW My Sifu learnt from Lee Shing for approx 25 years and is considered one of his eldest descendants in the World today. His skill surpasses any Wing Chun Sifu or student I have ever met or seen online but I don't feel I need to promote this as he speaks for himself. He was a bit of a street kid too, growing up in Londons Chinatown, and had his fair share of scraps (or playfights as he calls them!)

He still teaches and he does have plenty to offer his students. I don't think he would even entertain coaching a competitive fighter though as it just doesn't interest him. If all you wanted to do was learn how to fight for competition, he would have sent you away to a boxing gym or simply pass you to an elder who had the same interest.