Shaolin confused

[Hendrik]

Yes...I wrote that to let you know I understand what you are talking about, but it is a narrow perspective;

It is not a narrow perspective but a workable MUST do to UNDO direction to attain liberation.

it is incomplete understanding.

The idea that one “must use dharma to combat non-dharma” is attachment to conceptualization.

If one never picks up the “dharma-tool” from the first, one need never put it down!

It got nothing to do with complete or incomplete understanding.

It got all to do with the path neccesary take to UNDO the stuck.

One can go “directly from before step one to complete accomplishment”. The reason it is rare is because of attachment to method.

For the fully enlightement one or Tatagatha,
there is no need to do ANY THING for all delusion vanished by itself.

For the Attachement one,
Undoing is a must. And using a medicine to cure a disease got nothing to do with Attachement to method. Such as take cold medicine when one has a cold and not taking it after one's cold is gone. BTW. that human response of taking cold medicine when it is needed and not taking it after the cold is gone is a norm.


So which class of being

One can go “directly from before step one to complete accomplishment”.

The reason it is rare is because of attachment to method.

belongs to?



IMO, in the analogy of taking the cold medicine, The above statement is from those who biasly assume every human being is drug addict and not aware of the needed of UNDO the stuck for human being.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Scott,

I must admit that the optical illusion is a fine fine example. I understand your point all the better for it. For a while I saw only the young woman.

Allow me to play with a few seemingly unrelated quotes;

From Yoritomo Minamoto (brother and killer of Yo****sune) ' FROM THE PERPETUAL PURSUIT OF THE HIGHEST SPRINGS A SERIES OF REALISATIONS, EACH OF WHICH GIVES US THE JOY AND PRIDE OF CONQUEST' A phrase which I think sums up the 'Gong Fu' rather well.

'WE THEN USE THESE REALISATIONS, THESE FORCES AQUIRED OVER OURSELVES, IN THE PURSUIT OF ANOTHER IDEAL, OF A FORM MORE NEARLY PERFECT'

By this purpetual pursuit we do acheive realisations, these realisations allow us to move on new directions, discovering other ideals that before the realisation we would not know existed. Perhaps the realisation is unrelated even. These spring from the pursuit of something. The beauty of Gong fu is that it doesn't matter what this something is, simply the philosophy of pursuing the highest, the best. Striving takes us foreward.

The great Sage Yoritomo also warns us against circumscribed goals. He says it is like the man climbing the mountain, each time he reaches a peak he realises there is one yet higher still, and never reaches his goal. Where as those wiser 'OUR GOALS ARE NOT CIRCUMSCRIBED, BUT GRAND AND INFINITE' are always satisfied with their progress at the end of the day, they have no circumscribed goal for tomorrow, only to do better.

These quotes are not totally unrelated, I relay them because although I see and understand your point,I cannot totally accept it. I feel even without clinging or method we can still perpetually pursue the highest in what we do, and this power, this ability to pursue is, perhaps in mysterious and unseen ways, is what allows us to reach the finer realisations.

After all, If I did not know there was more to the picture I would have stopped looking and perhaps never seen the old woman because I would never have looked at the picture again. (looking at the picture = pursuit).

Hi RenDaHai,

It is important to distinguish between the world system growth related to conceptual forms, and realization. Buddhism does not say that change and growth do not exist. It merely distinguishes between conditional reality and unconditioned reality and teaches not to put your hopes in finding persistent happiness within the conditional reality. This is because conditional reality is based upon change and, since in a changing reality nothing lasts forever, when your happiness is based upon what changes, you are doomed to repeated suffering when that which makes you happy, changes into something else.

So anything you are clinging too in order to find your happiness is bound to disappear someday because all things found within the conditional reality cannot last.

That is why a realized person is in the world, but not of the world. That is, they still participate in the world system of learning, growth, and suffering they are just not bound to the system because they realize it is artificial in nature. They accept the flux and change of conditional reality and do not fix themselves permanently to any changing phenomena. But that does not mean they do not use changing phenomena.

Think of it like a first person computer game. It is a pretend reality based upon artificially constructed rules. While learning and growing occurs within the game you are still apart from the game while you play. The amount of engagement you have in the game is based upon your level of attachment to your artificially constructed game persona. You may attach to your persona and become engrossed into the game to the point you have forgotten the game is pretend or you may remain emotionally separate from the game yet still enjoy playing the game.

Each condition has value to it, however the game is generally played more effectively if one remains emotionally unattached .

[Scott R. Brown]

For the Attachement one,
Undoing is a must. And using a medicine to cure a disease got nothing to do with Attachement to method. Such as take cold medicine when one has a cold and not taking it after one's cold is gone. BTW. that human response of taking cold medicine when it is needed and not taking it after the cold is gone is a norm.

Once one recognizes they were never really sick they understand no medicine was ever necessary. But a person who "thinks" they are sick even though they are not truly sick, continues to take medicine thinking the medicine will heal them. But it won't because they are not truly sick to begin with.

Until they realize they are not truly sick they will continue to "think" they "need" the medicine.

[RenDaHai]

Hi Scott,

Ok, I'm starting to understand your point a little better.

I don't think of my view as opposing yours as such. I'm in favour of Pursuit and against apathy. Not saying your explanation contains apathy towards personal progress, just that I don't quite understand how effort is to be applied in this ...model ( Model, for want of any other word to sum up these ideas). I mean I understand what you have written, but applying these concepts even to your own thought process is difficult. I'm still making sense of these ideas myself and the constant struggle and pursuit is the only thing I am sure of.

[David Jamieson]

As suddenly as the brilliance of a meteorite appears is as suddenly as it is gone.
Still, there's many meterorites to come if you look into the inky black now and again.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Scott,

Ok, I'm starting to understand your point a little better.

I don't think of my view as opposing yours as such. I'm in favour of Pursuit and against apathy. Not saying your explanation contains apathy towards personal progress, just that I don't quite understand how effort is to be applied in this ...model ( Model, for want of any other word to sum up these ideas). I mean I understand what you have written, but applying these concepts even to your own thought process is difficult. I'm still making sense of these ideas myself and the constant struggle and pursuit is the only thing I am sure of.

Hi RenDaHai,

That is because it cannot be apprehended by the reasoning mind which is the mind of conceptualization and distinctions. So, many Ch'an Masters choose to directly point rather than explain. Explaining is using reason to indicate what is not bound by reason, which tends to lead to more reasoning, which is using more fire to put out a fire or water to dry yourself!

So those who use words to explain tend to use paradoxical statements in order to vaguely indicate what must be directly experienced to be understood.

Therefore one "tries without trying", "does without doing" and "learns without learning"! What this actually means you must perceive directly for yourself! When you do you will say to yourself, "Ahhhhhh!! THAT is what it means!"

[Scott R. Brown]

As suddenly as the brilliance of a meteorite appears is as suddenly as it is gone.
Still, there's many meterorites to come if you look into the inky black now and again.

Is the sky EVER inky black?

Sorry....I couldn't resist!

[David Jamieson]

Is the sky EVER inky black?

Sorry....I couldn't resist!

what isn't inky black without light?

[uki]

shaolin was a little forest of trees that grew into a great big forest of old growth incarnated spirits... errrr.... *cough* i mean... trees.

[Scott R. Brown]

what isn't inky black without light?

when I look I see stars myself!

[Hendrik]

Once one recognizes they were never really sick they understand no medicine was ever necessary. But a person who "thinks" they are sick even though they are not truly sick, continues to take medicine thinking the medicine will heal them. But it won't because they are not truly sick to begin with.

This type of view is what it called Zen Crazy in China's history.
Similar with a person who look outside of his prison window and thinking he is already free even he is in prison within his cell.

Thus, it is well know in the Chinese Zen history on the truth of " Seeing one's buddha nature temperaliry doesnt end one's reincarnation."

that is exactly as some prisoner look out of the window and thinking he is free. Well, too bad he couldnt even move a step out his cell.

Until they realize they are not truly sick they will continue to "think" they "need" the medicine.

Sure, that until means after they undo all the habit and subsconcious programing and that take many many karpa or thousands of life cycle.

As the prisoner who think he is already free still have to wait for his term to finish before he can step out of the cell. That is a reality.

[Scott R. Brown]

This type of view is what it called Zen Crazy in China's history.
Similar with a person who look outside of his prison window and thinking he is already free even he is in prison within his cell.

Thus, it is well know in the Chinese Zen history on the truth of " Seeing one's buddha nature temperaliry doesnt end one's reincarnation."

that is exactly as some prisoner look out of the window and thinking he is free. Well, too bad he couldnt even move a step out his cell.






Sure, that until means after they undo all the habit and subsconcious programing and that take many many karpa or thousands of life cycle.

As the prisoner who think he is already free still have to wait for his term to finish before he can step out of the cell. That is a reality.

When you accept a false premise you are bound and trapped by that false premise. Since true freedom is a state of mind, even a prisoner in his cell is free when he perceives his true nature!

Chains are only chains when you conceive of them as chains!

[Hendrik]

When you accept a false premise you are bound and trapped by that false premise. Since true freedom is a state of mind, even a prisoner in his cell is free when he perceives his true nature!

Chains are only chains when you conceive of them as chains!

all the talk and idea and conceive, but still stuck within the prison cell's wall.

That is called fantasy.




BTW
true freedom is not a state of mind not even "know" but "BE".
"false premise, state of mind, perceives his true nature" is a product of gasping at the illusive. and that is not "BE" or out of the prison.

One might be able to see outside but until one is out of the prison, one is not free.


Thus, your view is great to let other to see the world outside of the prison cell, however, that is not adequate to get out of the prison cell.

As the teaching of the Buddhism, until one attains the 8 ground level of Boddhisatva, one doesnt have the ability to end life and death cycle.

Even if one have seen one's buddha nature, to the most is just attaining the first ground level of Boddhisatva. Still long way to go. not to mention if the seen one's buddha nature is just a speculation of mind or understanding from reading books, that doesnt even has a first ground level attainment.

[Scott R. Brown]

all the talk and idea and conceive, but still stuck within the prison cell's wall.

That is called fantasy.

The fantasy is believing there is a prison cell from the start!

BTW
true freedom is not a state of mind not even "know" but "BE".
"false premise, state of mind, perceives his true nature" is a product of gasping at the illusive. and that is not "BE" or out of the prison.

Lets not confuse a metaphorical expression for an absolute statement about reality.

One might be able to see outside but until one is out of the prison, one is not free.

Since one is outside the prison from the first all one need do is understand the prison is of their own making!

Thus, your view is great to let other to see the world outside of the prison cell, however, that is not adequate to get out of the prison cell.

Just because you are trapped within your own prison cell does not justify trapping others in there with you! Shame on you!

A Ch'an anecdotal story:

"When he was young the Ch'an Master Ma-tzu was known for his hard practicing. One day Huai-jang, came upon Ma-tzu meditating. Having heard of his reputation, Huai-jang decided to test Ma-tzu. Huai-jang asked Ma-tzu what is the purpose of his meditation. Ma-tzu replied that he was practicing to become an enlightened being, a Buddha.

Huai-jang then picked up a brick and started rubbing it with a rock. After some time observing Huai-jang's actions, Ma-tzu asked "Why are you rubbing the brick with a rock?"

Huai-jang answered, "I'm polishing it into a mirror."

Ma-tzu said, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a brick?"

Huai-jang's said, "How can you become a Buddha by practicing meditation?" Hearing these words, Ma-tzu had a realization."

[Hendrik]

Lets not confuse a metaphorical expression for an absolute statement about reality.

until one can get out of the prison and has done it. the rest are just talks.