Spaztaztic Southern Mantis (Maybe)?

[RenDaHai]

I agree with LiuHeQuan above (sorry, I can't bring myself to use the cantonese).

The construction of ancient forms is something very few people understand. The poetic sequence and abstract moves conceal a vast amount of martial knowledge. But without the 'Key' it is invisible to you. People don't realise much of traditional wushu is abstract, the stance reflects the principle clearly but doesn't always reflect the technique clearly. The principle is more important because in reality the technique will never be the same as in training, but the principle, the formula, will be.

But I will say that actually there are no secrets as such, everything is there in front of you, but in order to understand it it takes a lot of time. No one really holds stuff back, but if your skills are not good enough, they simply won't teach you.

A Master and disciple is a special relationship. The master wants a good disciple as much as a disciple wants a good master. Without the other neither could exist. A master will freely teach you everything, If he thinks you have the potential to learn. If he's not teaching you stuff it is because you are not good enough, or because he has nothing to teach, he's not keeping secrets.

As people have been saying Chinese Gong Fu is an entire lifestyle, it certainly not just some fighting skills. Fighting skills can be learned quite fast, but to understand TCMA does really take many years.

Training for health is far more practical than training for combat, because you are many times more likely to die of poor health than die in a street fight. I'm sure this was always true, even in the times of bandits and warlords.

[Lokhopkuen]

Your wife has been telling stories about me again?

That is so disrespectful

[TenTigers]

I agree with LiuHeQuan above (sorry, I can't bring myself to use the cantonese).

not for nothing, but don't you find that to be a bit disrespectful?

[SanHeChuan]

That is so disrespectful

You left the door open. I just walked through it.

Besides its JUST the internet.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My teacher puts it this way;
"Will training in my style make you unstoppable? No.
Will it make you better than anyone else? No.
What I have is a specific set of skills.
Whether you choose to learn it or not is up to you."

I chose to learn it.

Correctumondo.

[MysteriousPower]

I agree with LiuHeQuan above (sorry, I can't bring myself to use the cantonese).

The construction of ancient forms is something very few people understand. The poetic sequence and abstract moves conceal a vast amount of martial knowledge. But without the 'Key' it is invisible to you. People don't realise much of traditional wushu is abstract, the stance reflects the principle clearly but doesn't always reflect the technique clearly. The principle is more important because in reality the technique will never be the same as in training, but the principle, the formula, will be.

But I will say that actually there are no secrets as such, everything is there in front of you, but in order to understand it it takes a lot of time. No one really holds stuff back, but if your skills are not good enough, they simply won't teach you.

A Master and disciple is a special relationship. The master wants a good disciple as much as a disciple wants a good master. Without the other neither could exist. A master will freely teach you everything, If he thinks you have the potential to learn. If he's not teaching you stuff it is because you are not good enough, or because he has nothing to teach, he's not keeping secrets.

As people have been saying Chinese Gong Fu is an entire lifestyle, it certainly not just some fighting skills. Fighting skills can be learned quite fast, but to understand TCMA does really take many years.

Training for health is far more practical than training for combat, because you are many times more likely to die of poor health than die in a street fight. I'm sure this was always true, even in the times of bandits and warlords.

What you and luokopen(sp?) are saying makes sense but you both are making sound a little too esoteic for my tastes. The "ancients" who put together the forms were putting together forms for how THEIR bodies moved. The forms were an extension of what existed inside of them through spirits, a god, genetics, or more likely what they were naturally good at and which drew their attention. They then taught these for s to their disciples who also shared their point of view. So what a form does for the interested student is aligns your body to what your mind wants and what your heart feels is right. Forms help train "prebirth" methods or in other words apriori. Forms help to train what was there already. This is why you hear stories of famous teachers only accepting stdentd with experience because the more you bring wih you the more that gets transformed when doing the new forms. In other other words it is like putting wood into a machine and furniture comes out the other end. The better quality the wood and the more wood you put in the better the end product. That is the function of forms in English for experienced fighters.

Forms do not have the same affects for people with no experience in the martial arts. It becomes a blind practice. What forms mean for us is a way to indoctrinate our bodies to do movements that, are not necessarily natural, naturally.

[SanHeChuan]

What were you saying about esoteic?

pot meet kettle.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms served a purpose for the times they were developed in.
That is not to say that they are obsolete, that isn't the point.
Can one learn to fight with forms?
In conjunction with sparring, yes.
Does one NEED forms to learn to fight and develop as a fighter? No.
Can forms HINDER the development of a fighter? Yes.
Can forms HELP the development of a fighter? Yes.
Do forms STILL serve a purpose?
Yes.
Is that purpose to develop fighting skills? Nope.
While they CAN do they, there are better ways to do it now.
Are forms essential elements for some MA?
Yes, I believe so.

[Wildwoo]

Your wife has been telling stories about me again?

His wife is in the hospital about to leave this world due to cancer.
Internet or not d!psh!t show some respect.

[Lokhopkuen]

What you and luokopen(sp?) are saying makes sense but you both are making sound a little too esoteic for my tastes. The "ancients" who put together the forms were putting together forms for how THEIR bodies moved. The forms were an extension of what existed inside of them through spirits, a god, genetics, or more likely what they were naturally good at and which drew their attention. They then taught these for s to their disciples who also shared their point of view. So what a form does for the interested student is aligns your body to what your mind wants and what your heart feels is right. Forms help train "prebirth" methods or in other words apriori. Forms help to train what was there already. This is why you hear stories of famous teachers only accepting stdentd with experience because the more you bring wih you the more that gets transformed when doing the new forms. In other other words it is like putting wood into a machine and furniture comes out the other end. The better quality the wood and the more wood you put in the better the end product. That is the function of forms in English for experienced fighters.

Forms do not have the same affects for people with no experience in the martial arts. It becomes a blind practice. What forms mean for us is a way to indoctrinate our bodies to do movements that, are not necessarily natural, naturally.

Form alone is a waste of time, fighting as an art is multi leveled, multi faceted, multi dimensional over and through time. Nothing much has changed since my Great Grandmaster formulated his learnings in to a teachable system other than they actually used it in life or death combat. (Well except I'm a foot and a half taller, stronger and carry pistols with 30 shot clips)

[Lokhopkuen]

Forms served a purpose for the times they were developed in.
That is not to say that they are obsolete, that isn't the point.
Can one learn to fight with forms?
In conjunction with sparring, yes.
Does one NEED forms to learn to fight and develop as a fighter? No.
Can forms HINDER the development of a fighter? Yes.
Can forms HELP the development of a fighter? Yes.
Do forms STILL serve a purpose?
Yes.
Is that purpose to develop fighting skills? Nope.
While they CAN do they, there are better ways to do it now.
Are forms essential elements for some MA?
Yes, I believe so.

You should run for state office Ronnie Raygun
You know what the people want! LOL!

[SanHeChuan]

Pretty sure I was not addressing you and you think you can say what you want about my family?

It's a small world after all.

Pretty sure there are no private conversations on a public board. But since you took offense then I am sorry.

[RenDaHai]

Forms served a purpose for the times they were developed in.
That is not to say that they are obsolete, that isn't the point.
Can one learn to fight with forms?
In conjunction with sparring, yes.
Does one NEED forms to learn to fight and develop as a fighter? No.
Can forms HINDER the development of a fighter? Yes.
Can forms HELP the development of a fighter? Yes.
Do forms STILL serve a purpose?
Yes.
Is that purpose to develop fighting skills? Nope.
While they CAN do they, there are better ways to do it now.
Are forms essential elements for some MA?
Yes, I believe so.

Yeah, I agree with this, well said. There are many Wushu styles that exist without forms, just collections of a few good single moves, that are drilled. Even in something form heavy like Shaolin, there are sets of moves which are just single moves with drills.

Forms do come from a different time. A time when no one had you tube or tvs to watch fights. SO if a simple Uppercut appeared in a form it may have been an absolute revelation to someone who had never seen that way to punch before. But forms still have a lot to teach us about strategy and combat, and there are good moves hidden in forms that are not exploited in many of todays combat systems because of the emphasis on sports combat, and the fact lots of people don't understand forms. But yeah, they are not essential and they can be a distraction. But hell, I love them. There is something awesome about practicing a form that some warrior 500 years ago may have practiced the same way.

[Lokhopkuen]

Yeah, I agree with this, well said. There are many Wushu styles that exist without forms, just collections of a few good single moves, that are drilled. Even in something form heavy like Shaolin, there are sets of moves which are just single moves with drills.
{SNIP}

Those are forms

[RenDaHai]

On me not being able to write cantonese;

not for nothing, but don't you find that to be a bit disrespectful?

Haha, yeah. SOrry, I didn't mean it like that. Cantonese can be a beautiful language, but unfortunately when written in english it looks ridiculous.

LopHokKuen is not as beautiful as LiuHeQuan (leo her chwen), I know its in the eye of the beholder but still.

What I really hate is the word 'Kwoon' for Dojo. It sounds and looks silly in english, and has nothing to do with martial arts, it just means a place or a building. In Mandarin it is 'Guan' but in order to say Dojo you would need to say 'Wu Guan' with Wu being the important word (martial). Guan (kwoon) is not important at all, you don't even need it, you can say Wu Yuan for example, a different word for a building structure. I suppose Wukwoon would be ok but that sounds even more silly. There is just no way to write cantonese in english that looks cool. SO I like to translate to mandarin. Most of the time we just say 'Lian gong fang' or training room.

Sorry for the unneccessary rant....