The 3 Centerlines

[Ultimatewingchun]

WANT TO MAKE A THREAD OUT OF THIS:


I have found that the use of CENTERLINE principles enhances the boxing that I use...

and by using boxing in conjunction with the CENTERLINE principles....my wing chun is enhanced.

In the standup striking/kicking game, that is.

Boxing from long range (aided and abetted by boxing type footwork and long range kicks)...gets me to close range....where wing chun takes the ball....

until if and when a clinch comes into play...then it's wrestling and some Muay Thai....and yes, possibly mixed with wing chun if some separation takes place...

and/or some boxing hooks, uppercuts, and dirty boxing (hold and strike)...which is clearly a close cousin to wing chun simultaneous block and strike at close range anyway.

AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:

My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line...and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line...

and at very close range....these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.

So I'm using three centerlines....(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).

And when the three centerlines are used...quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional
(ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)
……………………………………………….

FOLLOWED BY THIS FROM WAYFARING:

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun:

"AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line...and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line...and at very close range....these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.So I'm using three centerlines....(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).And when the three centerlines are used...quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional (ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)"

Hey Victor,

Props for your explanation of the TWC central line. I know a lot of people say HFY and TWC are so similar, but I've never encountered that concept and didn't really understand it.

Your description of the goals and range specifically make it really clear, better than anything I've seen posted on it before.

.................................................. ..

AND THEN THIS:

***THANKS.

You know, it's only recently that I've started describing the central line in this way for myself and my students. So much can easily be lost or misunderstood in wing chun if you don't try to simplify the concepts and principles - and by that I mean just cut them down to the essentials.

There's more that could be said about the central line - but I think that the "three centerlines" way of describing it hits all of the most important bases.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Okay...who would like to discuss this further?

[chusauli]

In Yip Man WCK, we say that at a distance, the shoulder is the centerline.

In the pole, we use the shoulder lines extensively.

So it makes perfect sense that the Left Jab of boxing at a distance is the centerline, until you are more square with your opponent at close range. Mun Sao (or called Fut Sao or Fak Sao) and Biu Sao, of course, fill that need using WCK tools.

Of what use are the mid clavicular lines? And its better to say mid clavicular lines or even refer to them as "elbow" lines, rather than "nipple lines", because those studied in anatomy know that the nipples come in all variation of up, down, innie's, outies, droopies, etc. (maybe Sanjuro/Paul can insert pictures ) Are they used for a target system, as in the shoulder and main centerline?

The mid clavicular lines, to me, are used as the defensive line for your tools to operate in - by occupying the periphery - they optimize the best defensive and offensive coverage for infighting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I understand exactly what you are saying - and I've heard that kind of interpretation before - and from a fair amount of people through the years.

But what I''m saying is different.

Because what is being said by yourself (and some others) is that from a distance a mon sao type attack (ie.- like a lead jab) is now the centerline (along your shoulder line) - and you square up your main middle-of-the-body centerline at close range.

But that still pre-supposes that working with one centerline is enough from longer range, a concept which I believe has a serious flaw in it...

because I have found that one is not enough - since there is still too much space for the opponent to work with, ie.- various rounded type strikes and kicks...from longer range.

Whereas when using two centerlines from longer range - you are severely impeding his space and his options.

In the way I'm describing it, you are chasing valuable real estate (and not hands)...on both sides of your body and his.

Makes for not only a much tighter and secure defensive structure - but also opens up lots of possibilities for attacks of your own that don't exist when using just one line.

[canglong]

There are three centerlines in the HFY system

子午橋天人地中線
Gee Ng Kiu Tin Yan Day centerline

三點一線中線
Saam Dim Yat Sien centerline

橋手中線
Kiu Sao centerline
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthr...?t=2737&page=4

Victor,
Interesting topic I wonder if you recall that our HFY members were some of the first to discuss the topic of 3 center lines on this forum. Your explaination is not unlike that used in HFY which makes sense being that all wing chun before the 1800's originates from the same source. The only differnce being the serperation of the red boat opera troops and that of the Red Boxer society. TWC belonging to the opera troops and HFY derived from the boxer society it is interesting to note their similarities and differences.
Also worth mentioning is the fact that the 3 center lines we are discussing here are different from that of Weng Chun which is based solely on the concept of animal style tin yan dei. HFY on the other hand is based on the concepts of the 4 gate tin yan dei and 6 gate tin yan dei. Having been through a Chi Sim workshop myself I can suggest that in order to thoroughly grasp the difference readers of this forum might want to do the same.
There are lots of stories out there about the difference of weng chun and wing chun and how Chu Chong Man and Yip Man may have been related to each other or may or may not have fought one another. For the past few years GM Gee has been researching this and other subjects and has uncovered so much information he has decided to share his latest findings with the public in a special release of his in the near future tentively called the Kung Fu Tong Project.

[Ultimatewingchun]

About 5 years ago I had some chats with Andreas Hoffman - and we exchanged some vids...and then he told me one of his top guys was coming to NYC for a visit.

Long story short: I picked him up at his hotel in Manhattan, we drove over to the school of a friend of mine (Miguel Hernandez - who trained with Moy Yat - but long after I left Moy Yat for William Cheung and TWC)...we exchanged ideas, did some sparring, went to lunch - and then back to Manhattan.

As for the HFY guys being the first around here to talk about this - could be, even though I was here and part of the conversation....don't really know for sure....since the HFY language was so cryptic at the time ...

but in any event, I'm not surprised to read your post.

[Wayfaring]

There are three centerlines in the HFY system

子午橋天人地中線
Gee Ng Kiu Tin Yan Day centerline

三點一線中線
Saam Dim Yat Sien centerline

橋手中線
Kiu Sao centerline
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthr...?t=2737&page=4

My comment was to do with I've never heard this referred to in HFY as the "central line".

Are the 3 centerlines spoken of here the same as TWC teaches them?

[canglong]

Dave,
I would imagine there has to be some differences as far as I see there always are when discussing the read boat troop and the red boxer society. What are your thoughts while we await Victor's reply?

Victor,
You remember a lot of our past discussions so I bet you remember some of the story along the lines of Yip man going to Hong Kong and then returning to mainland China. While in China he did some chi sau with his sihings from Chan Wah-shun lineage and won. After this encounter in may wing chun circles Yip Man was accused of being a trader to his system. It was said that after training with Leung Bik his wing chun looked very different than before he met Leung bik.

I am not sure how you look at it but other people consider some of the theories and concepts of TWC and HFY as unique and visibly quite different than most other wing chun lineages. Personally I think of what others says as very different as being subtly different in approach and maybe substantively different visually because as with the concept of tin yan dei for weng chun and wing chun the differences are not visually noticeable.

So again one must first understand the origins of wing chun and the 2 distinct branches that evolved from the one source after the 1800s. Once this is understood not only are all the similarities accounted it for but also the differences as well. Wong Wah Bo and the Red Opera troop and Hung Gun Biu and the Red Boxer society are the 2 factions that logically connect all wing chun to its' original source. This too also explains how Yip Man could be accused of having 2 differnt sources of wing chun but in fact not be a trader to wing chun at all.

[Ultimatewingchun]

That's a very interesting post, Tony...and quite possibly right on the mark in terms of history and the similarities and differences between various wing chun lineages.

If you could translate some of the HFY terms in language easy to understand in English...
(I'm serious, but not in a critical way)...

I think this could become a very revealing and productive thread.

For example, if you could give a clear explanation of what's meant by:

1) Gee Ng Kiu Tin Yan Day centerline

2) Saam Dim Yat Sien centerline

3) Kiu Sao centerline

....I would be in a better position to respond to the points that Wayfaring has brought up.

[duende]

My comment was to do with I've never heard this referred to in HFY as the "central line".

Are the 3 centerlines spoken of here the same as TWC teaches them?

No... Although there might be a degree of overlap, as we all do WC.

However technically, in HFY they refer to self-centerline, a->b centerline, and COG/COM via structural control/domination centerline.

Which is much different than how central line was explained to me.

On a horizontal plane we have Yin line and Yang lines as well, but they are used more for guard and power generation as related to range and facing.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"However technically, in HFY they refer to self-centerline, a->b centerline, and COG/COM via structural control/domination centerline...

...On a horizontal plane we have Yin line and Yang lines as well, but they are used more for guard and power generation as related to range and facing." (duende/Alex)
.........................

***OKAY, so again...

1) Explain more about "self-centerline" (although I believe I know what you mean, but would rather hear it from you guys)...

2) a->b centerline (now this term, as it stands, is not clear to me at all)...

3) COG/COM via structural control/domination centerline...(okay, center of gravity and center of mass I get - but what do you mean by "via structural control/domination centerline"???)...

4) Yin and Yang lines on the horizontal plane....(again, I understand the horizontal plane - but what are getting at when you speak of yin and yang lines on this plane???)...
.........................................

I suspect that I am familiar with most (if not all) of what's being discussed here - but certainly not in these terms.

Much the same way that "Central Line" - as William Cheung describes it - could be difficult to understand for non-TWC guys unless "translated" - so to speak.

[LoneTiger108]

There's more that could be said about the central line - but I think that the "three centerlines" way of describing it hits all of the most important bases.

I briefly suggested on the other thread that I have heard of three centre lines explained a bit differently, and from reading the further posts here it seems that what I have learnt is very similar

Not to sure of why we need to separate to two distinct lineages, as I'm pretty sure that what I know has elements of both Wong Wah Boh and Hung Gun Biu Wing Chun. I have always been told that it really should not matter, as the common personality we can all identify with is Ip Man, who links us to Leung Jan.

Every other character inbetween may as well just be mythical imho, kind of like Ng Jung Soh to be honest...

[Wayfaring]

Not to sure of why we need to separate to two distinct lineages, as I'm pretty sure that what I know has elements of both Wong Wah Boh and Hung Gun Biu Wing Chun. I have always been told that it really should not matter, as the common personality we can all identify with is Ip Man, who links us to Leung Jan.

Except for Hung Gun Biu was a separate line from Ip Man. Ip Man's ancestry was Wang Wah Boh.

HFY is not from Ip Man.

[LoneTiger108]

Except for Hung Gun Biu was a separate line from Ip Man. Ip Man's ancestry was Wang Wah Boh.

HFY is not from Ip Man.

I understand that! Sorry I'm not too familiar with HFY. Do they not link through from Hung Gun Biu to Leung Jan in any way? If not, are you sure this influence isn't more Hung Kuen in nature?

If I was to pin point our ancestry to any group it would be the operatic performers of Canton, who may or may not have been linked directly to the Red Boat AND the Red Flower Societies...

[Ultimatewingchun]

At this point in time, to be quite frank, I don't really care about lineage. It's academic to me where and from whom something came from. It's an interesting history discussion, but in the final analysis...so what?

I'm more interested in knowing what works and what doesn't.