Amazing catch wrestling vid

[Wayfaring]

Boston crab vid:

A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold.

What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario.

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Coming back to base:

And just what do you think the reason was that he demoed this against someone not using low hips (like wrestlers, like what Cecchine advocates, etc.) ??? Because in today's grappling/mma world most guys are on their knees from cross chest side control in order to work for mount. Not to mention the fact that getting a double wristlock or a top wristlock from side control is easiest done from the knees (or at least a tripod type position).

And as for other types of escapes from side control - including against low hips - you can rest assured that the man in question knows a number of them. But this vid was about the other scenario - as well as if someone has your back.

there wasn't really any reason to demo this escape against no pressure from the top, and with enough of a hole on top to drive a semi through. that's not a scenario that comes up rolling with anybody with fundamentals, and if they don't have fundamentals, why bother videoing a demo against it?

No good grappler I know of (bjj, sub wrestling, catch, freestyle, sambo, etc.) leaves those kind of holes, even on their knees. Just because you have your knees under you doesn't mean your hips can't be low, and it's really poor grappling posture to have that much space on top.

We don't really know what the guy knows or what he doesn't, just the video he puts out there.

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Rolling around:

Was it some sort of tournament atmosphere? No. Was it good stuff nonetheless? Of course it was.

My point there was not whether flow rolling is good stuff or not. It's an important piece to developing fluidity from one position to another. This is true in any grappling art, bjj, catch, sambo, etc. It's good to see flow rolling.

Here's an example of something that is not quite flow rolling - it's not tournament going after it pace, but genuine pressure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1kLYq2noc8

Can you see how there's more competitive resistance in that clip?

My point was I'd like to see competitive grappling clips like that out of those guys training as well - not just flow rolling.

In a class setting, if you do flow rolling to warm up, then progress in your matches to more competitive rolling, that is a great scenario for consistent training.

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And btw...

Watch what Sakuraba does at about 40 seconds into this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnEFL...eature=related

Sakuraba is fighting out from competitive pressure in that situation. There's a huge difference between that and the demo. The demo the guys says "you never want to be on your back you always want to be on your side", then turns to his side with the guy on top on all fours. Not even down on his elbows.

Also, notice the difference in detail execution between Sak and the demo. The demo guy has his top arm to his chest and his down arm on the opponent's hip. Sak has his down arm not on the hip, but swims both under to give him leverage for the hip heist going to the back.

That is a key detail missing in the demo, and the exact key detail that is the difference between it working under pressure and in a live situation and it not working.

[Yao Sing]

Mmmmm, Boston crab.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

Boston crab vid:

"A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold."
.....................................

And amazingly, this was one response:

"What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario."
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***LOFL.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

Boston crab vid:

"A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold."
.....................................

And amazingly, this was one response:

"What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario."
.............................................

***LOFL.

what i think he meant is that if it doesnt work in grappling, relying on strikes to make it work is silly, if its not a solid fundermental move you can hit over and over why bother with it?
then its a perfect example of something that will never work in a grappling situation but will somehow majically work when strikes are added...if you cant pull it off without strikes chances are you will not pull it off with strikes, yes he might push of with his legs, he might not, and if he does it will be so fast that you will probably not be able to get the leg, and if you can do you really think he will lay there and let you turn him over?

as for the side control position, he was, as pointed out working against a cr*p side control, fundermentals such as how to get from flat on the back to on your shoulder, how to swim in an arm, how to get the near side arm in to make a frame, how to defend the cross face, these should all be covered before showing the escapes otherwise the rest is useless.

And being on your knees does not mean you are not using low hips people train to have a tight low control with their knees up, why show something that only works agianst bad positions its just silly you should demo things that work against everyone not just scrubs

[Wayfaring]

Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun

Boston crab vid:

"A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold."
.....................................

And amazingly, this was one response:

"What do strikes have to do with the Boston crab setup? I mean I'm not arguing the point of incorporating strikes in training, but just don't see it in this scenario."
.............................................

***LOFL.

It's nice you can LOFL.

How about answering intelligently and addressing the points instead of posting idiocy?

You are standing, your opponent is on his back. Like in the video demo. You are attacking one of his legs.

Please describe to me exactly where strikes come into play. You're not GNP, you're not striking standing, you're not kicking him. There are only 2 scenarios I can think of where striking comes into play with one person standing and the other on his back. An upkick from the bottom, or punching over the top of his guard going into GNP. Neither of those have much to do with the Boston Crab, other than if you can snag one of the legs while he's upkicking.

Also, LOL at "hip-to-hip pressure" setting one of these up. What, posturing up in someone's guard? Yeah, that really gets them to throw out one of their feet for you to attack.

[Ultimatewingchun]

According to "who" is it silly, Frost?

People who want to keep everything a sport?

How is it silly to get caught in a half boston crab and half your back injured when someone sits down on it while pulling your leg in the other direction?

And you can't move to take the pressure off. How is that silly?

Or they mess up your achilles? Or both?

It's silly because a combination of strikes and hip-to-hip pressure is what set it up???!!!

Along with posturing up correctly, posting a leg that can't be swept, and using that leg to tighten up against his guard leg and hip - making it tough for him to maneuver on that side.

Yeah, I guess that's all pretty silly.

[m1k3]

Victor, what is the cacc position on space and weight for things like side control or mount? Just trying to understand the starting position on the getting back to base demo.

[Frost]

According to "who" is it silly, Frost?

People who want to keep everything a sport?

How is it silly to get caught in a half boston crab and half your back injured when someone sits down on it while pulling your leg in the other direction?

And you can't move to take the pressure off. How is that silly?

Or they mess up your achilles? Or both?

It's silly because a combination of strikes and hip-to-hip pressure is what set it up???!!!

Along with posturing up correctly, posting a leg that can't be swept, and using that leg to tighten up against his guard leg and hip - making it tough for him to maneuver on that side.

Yeah, I guess that's all pretty silly.

No whats silly is someone who has never competed in grappling and never trained at a decent MMA school telling people who have what will or will not work

Silly is a move that you never see pulled off in MMA or grappling...silly is relying on strikes to make a move work because it is low percentage and cr*ppy...silly is getting all your training and ideas from youtube...silly is not being able to answer any of wayfarings or my questions about the technique.....silly is telling people who actually grapple how to psoture and use a move...thats silly

Something else thats silly is you keep posting videos you think are very good then get annoyed when people why actually grapple and compete question there usefullness, if all you want is for people to go "gosh isnt that good" then perhaps you should post them on a site which doesnt have people that actually know about grappling and MMA? Either that or just accept that people here know more about this than you and dont find what you post that good...just a thought......



combination of strikes and hip pressure LMAO as already asked what strikes and hip pressure please enlighten us.....

[Wayfaring]

Along with posturing up correctly, posting a leg that can't be swept, and using that leg to tighten up against his guard leg and hip - making it tough for him to maneuver on that side.

Well now you're at least starting to sound more intelligent.

Attacking a leg from guard - yes, when they start to move their legs from closed guard to putting a foot on your hip, the best initialization to attacking a foot is to post a leg up same side, knee in with pressure against his leg, and your elbow inside. That tends to pop his foot off your hip and feed it to you to attack.

I like the Boston crab better from there, as falling back for a footlock if you can't finish it you usually give up position.

[Ultimatewingchun]

1) You won't lose "position"...CONTROLLING POSITION, that is...if you fall back into heel hook, achilles, or step over toe hold if he pushes with that leg. It'll be too late for him to stand up and gain a controlling position of his own at that point.

2) Cecchine's position is that hips must always be lowered by getting completely off your knees when using side control. I used to work exclusively with that concept - but have changed my approach - and other cacc wrestlers also don't abide by that as an all out strict rule also.

I like to hip completely down and off the knees when first getting the position - in order to fortify my control over the guy, ie.- he's really pinned to the floor and carrying all my weight. And from there I like to go to tripod and start working for subs and/or strikes.

But of course this is "theory"...the reality in cacc is that anything can happen at any given moment..."catch any hold you can"...in order to gain control over his body.

Control is the name of the catch game - using your whole body as a weapon and his whole body as a target.

You want to ride heavy as much as you can - because this tires him out and makes it hard for him to maneuver - but in truth - the over riding principle in cacc is CONTROL...and heavy rides are just a means to that end - but not the only means.

[Wayfaring]

1) You won't lose "position"...CONTROLLING POSITION, that is...if you fall back into heel hook, achilles, or step over toe hold if he pushes with that leg. It'll be too late for him to stand up and gain a controlling position of his own at that point.

You lose position against better grapplers immediately in the transition. If someone is falling back on me I can sit up into them immediately and beat the knee in between my legs from coming over the top to defend.

2) Cecchine's position is that hips must always be lowered by getting completely off your knees when using side control. I used to work exclusively with that concept - but have changed my approach - and other cacc wrestlers also don't abide by that as an all out strict rule also.

You need more mobility than that for a really effective top game. Although his concept of getting them carrying the weight and punishing them from the top is a good one. But you need mobility and to be able to block their hip movement with both hands and knees to be effective. And good transitions between side control, mount, and knee on belly.

I like to hip completely down and off the knees when first getting the position - in order to fortify my control over the guy, ie.- he's really pinned to the floor and carrying all my weight. And from there I like to go to tripod and start working for subs and/or strikes.

when you first get an advantageous position people are going to spaz out to escape, reverse, throw you off. you have to weather that storm first, then when there's a gap because they are tired advance or work a sub. Low hips are good, circling to north-south is good. tony c's low hip side control to me still leaves an opening for them to rock back and forth and snag a leg for half guard. you have to be real careful to block that with going to one hip, then consolidate.

But of course this is "theory"...the reality in cacc is that anything can happen at any given moment..."catch any hold you can"...in order to gain control over his body.

i'm coming to the viewpoint that not 'anything' can happen. there are certain things that can happen from certain positions, and you can direct that flow to set things up.

Control is the name of the catch game - using your whole body as a weapon and his whole body as a target.

You want to ride heavy as much as you can - because this tires him out and makes it hard for him to maneuver - but in truth - the over riding principle in cacc is CONTROL...and heavy rides are just a means to that end - but not the only means.

this is funny because it's kind of coming full circle with discussions about BJJ. their whole deal about 'position before submission' is totally a control thing. in better positions you have more control over your opponent, and can use that control advantage to effectively apply a submission.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I think my work is done here.

[Knifefighter]

......is a cacc wrestling instructor in Quebec, Canada, and trains a team of guys.

Here's some of his vids, starting with the half Boston crab. Enjoy.


Half Boston crab:

There is a reason you don't see matches won with the Boston crab as shown like that. It doesn't work. It doesn't work in submission grappling, it doesn't work in MMA, and it doesn't work in SAMBO.

There are variations that will work, but not like that. Trying to do what he is showing will simply get you swept or leg-locked yourself.

Coming back to base:

Putting both hands on the hips like that is a recipe for having your opponent throw on a D'acrce choke on you.

[Knifefighter]

Boston crab vid:

A perfect example of why strikes have to be incorporated into your wrestling/grappling game. Yes, it is hard to get. Did you notice that he said "if your man pushes you back with his legs" as part of the set up? Well just what do you think might get him to do that? Strikes and hip-to-hip pressure, that's what. Both of which - working together - is also a setup for a fall back heel hook that he won't be be able to stand up on...or a fall back achilles...or a step over toe hold.

Personally, I prefer to stick with the moves that work both with and without striking.
Not to mention the fact that the guy would have to be already unconscious to the move to work anyway.

Watch what Sakuraba does at about 40 seconds into this vid.

Sakaraba was not in the position shown on the original vid.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Just because YOU haven't seen the move before - or haven't seen it WORK before - doesn't mean that it won't work.

Take a good look at this cacc submission demoed by Tony Cecchine. I'm sure the odds that you've ever seen it before - and done EXACTLY like this...are slim to none.

But this move is friggin' awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86mqhBE2ip4


...Okay, now I'm done here.