Why no identifiably good Kung Fu in MMA events?

[scotty1]

Cheers Jon.

It's been a good debating day. And a learning experience.

[truewrestler]

ummm....i've seen people moving the blocking hand...common...you don't have to grab....just move enough to strike

good story though, just goes to show ya

[Merryprankster]

To those of you that answered the original premise: Thank you. I appreciate it. I went back and read the posts at least, from everybody You certainly all deserve that.

No paul, I didn't want to hear "Kung Fu sucks!" (but you said it, not me)

Yuan, Yeah, I think I made a mistake when I formulated the question. There's just as much skill in doing that as there is answering questions. Oops.

And just for the record, I find many of the fights to be boring as all get out too.

Regards all, James

[Steven T. Richards]

Hi Jon,

The pulled up shirt or coat is quite common in the Uk and has been for 25 plus years to my knowledge. Its a favourite way to 'do' someone if there are two or more attackers (usually muggers). Doesn't feature much in many forms though...

What it does show is the importance of reality training - and as in your case - learning from reality - that is all that is needed to move on.

Blindness comes in many 'forms' - the metaphorical, and as with the shirt, the all too literal.

One problem is that a lot of martial arts don't train efficiently on information processing. Contact sensitivity or gate theory is only one aspect of this, and, a somewhat artificial one at that. By artificial, I mean second order, away from natural data and hypothesis driven information.

maybe we can develop this on teh otehr thread? It is pertinent to where that debate is going.

Cheers Friend,

Steve.

[Knifefighter]

Shooter:
Not sure if I have asked you this before, and if I have I apologize for forgetting, but which events have you fought in? Also, which fighters do you train?


straightblast5:
You said: "Conditioning to fight within limits (no matter how slight) in and of itself is considered to be inefficient in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) and many other methods."

Don't you pretty much do this every single time you practice techs or spar? How would you "condition to fight" without limits unless you were actually fighting for real?


Braden:
You said: "As an addenum, remember that there are individuals trained in kungfu that are doing very well in mixed style tournaments (eg. Tim Cartmell)"

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Tim only competes in grappling tourneys and trains in BJJ for these. I don't think I have every heard of him competing in a MMA competition.

[straightblast5]

Knifefighter,

straightblast5:
You said: "Conditioning to fight within limits (no matter how slight) in and of itself is considered to be inefficient in Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) and many other methods."

Don't you pretty much do this every single time you practice techs or spar? How would you "condition to fight" without limits unless you were actually fighting for real?

Training with limits is different than training for limits. When one trains for competition, they train to accommodate factors posed by the rules that could lead one to victory.

The "limits" that is placed upon training are there for oblivious safety reasons, but training is different than competing. When training, (chi-sao, sparring, or any type of exercise that involves an attempt to execute techniques against a resisting opponent) your goals are not to dominate your opponent, but to execute movements with a set structure and concept of approach. Even when placed in a position where the execution of your principles are in poor comparison to your partner's, you must stay with parameters of your training goals if you are to improve in your chosen method. You could retaliate with wild punches and kicks that might land on your partner, but then you are moving outside the spectrum of the said principles. It is similar to a boxer working on an entry with jabs. Sure, he can throw wild punches and get into range with his sparring partner, but when matched against someone with superior boxing skills, he might not be able to do the same.

When you train for limits, you are limited. When you train within a steady progression of resistance, you can bring these skills gained into a fight with no limits.

As I have stated in my original post to answer Merry Prankster’s question, the benefits of competition is relative and of personal discretion. I choose to compete with the understanding that even if I lose, I am doing so to gain the attributes that I can bring to a real encounter. I compete for the sake of training, not vice versa (training for the sake of competition). And if I lose, it’s probably because I did not have the physical attributes to match my opponent, or I chose not to betray the principles and approaches that I would execute in a confrontation with no rules -just to win a competition (i.e. like throwing "wild punches" as in my above boxing analogy).

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association

[Archangel]

HAHAH fair Enough Straight blast, I still don't know what a "back buck" is I have to admit though, i am a little frustrated. I've asked this question since I've came to this board and nobody has been able to give me any examples; Ah well maybe someday.

I still dont understand though why a Kung Fu fighter cant train for MMA and also be prepared for the street. Like I said earlier I do and i've never had any problem differentiating the 2. I've never thrown a punch in a wrestling tourney or tried to take someone down in a boxing fight. On the street, I knew what had to be done and I was never limited by my training. I just cant relate to this kind of thinking I guess. I NEED AN EXAMPLE

Also, were you on this forum about 4 or 5 months ago when knifefighter posted the fight between John Marsh (MMA) fighter and a traditional San Soo instructor. This fight was completely NHB with biting and eye gouging allowed. The fight turned out like every other traditionalist vs MMA fight in the UFC before it, with the San Soo instructer on the ground having his elbow dislocated. I'm guessing here that if the San Soo instructor used MMA as a training tool he would have faired alot better.

[straightblast5]

Archangel,

"HAHAH fair Enough Straight blast, I still don't know what a "back buck" is I have to admit though, i am a little frustrated. I've asked this question since I've came to this board and nobody has been able to give me any examples; Ah well maybe someday."

I'm glad you understand. That's the problem with communicating with only written words. Sorry I wasn't able to give you the specifics that you were looking for, but I hope my general reasoning have shed some light on the topic (and my position).

"I still dont understand though why a Kung Fu fighter cant train for MMA and also be prepared for the street. Like I said earlier I do and i've never had any problem differentiating the 2. I've never thrown a punch in a wrestling tourney or tried to take someone down in a boxing fight. On the street, I knew what had to be done and I was never limited by my training. I just cant relate to this kind of thinking I guess."

I'm glad to hear that you are willing to differentiate the two. Lots of people are unable or are unwilling to distinguish between the ring and the street. That's probably why you have found success (or at least comfort) with both the pavement arena and the ring. Like I have previously stated, your regular methods probably doesn't diverge enough between street and ring application for you to reconsider participating in either. Which is good for you, but for some, the divergence is great enough for them to reconsider.

"Also, were you on this forum about 4 or 5 months ago when knifefighter posted the fight between John Marsh (MMA) fighter and a traditional San Soo instructor. This fight was completely NHB with biting and eye gouging allowed. The fight turned out like every other traditionalist vs MMA fight in the UFC before it, with the San Soo instructer on the ground having his elbow dislocated. I'm guessing here that if the San Soo instructor used MMA as a training tool he would have faired alot better."

I saw the clip of the fight. I was aware of John Marsh's history before the seeing the match, but I had no references as to the skill level the San Soo guy. From what I saw, the San Soo fighter would not have fared well against a lot of people, much less someone with the attributes and training that Marsh has. I'm guessing the San Soo guy could have fared better if he was in better shape, period. When it comes down to it, if we are to discuss MMA versus CMA (not that we are ) we need to look closer to the persons involved.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association

[Knifefighter]

A little background on the San Soo guy. In terms of strength and conditioning, he was supposed to be unparalleled, according to his students and fellow instructor. As far as his skill level, same thing, according to the same people (funny how everybody thinks their instructor is invincible- I'll bet the majority of people on this forum believe their teacher could beat Marsh). However, like many who believe that training for the ring puts too many restrictions on the ability to develop true self-defense techniques, he had never had the chance to try out his arsenal for real on a big, tough, skilled opponent. His introduction into what happens when a person like this attacks you was a rude awakening for him.

[Braden]

KF - You're right. I believe he only competes in grappling tourneys, rather than NHB-style tourneys. To my understanding, he uses baguazhang in these the way some people use wrestling and/or judo, along with BJJ for groundwork. But if you're interested in his experiences mixing kungfu with BJJ, you're better off asking him - he's usually very open to these kinds of inquiries. He has a forum at www.shenwu.com .

[straightblast5]

Knifefighter,

"A little background on the San Soo guy. In terms of strength and conditioning, he was supposed to be unparalleled, according to his students and fellow instructor."

Not very reliable sources, as you later point out yourself.

"As far as his skill level, same thing, according to the same people (funny how everybody thinks their instructor is invincible- I'll bet the majority of people on this forum believe their teacher could beat Marsh)."

Do you think your instructor could beat Marsh? An instructor is no different than a trainer. I don't think Tyson's trainer could beat Tyson, and I don't think Tyson or his trainer would have any illusions about the topic either. I think you need to give people here a little more credit.

"However, like many who believe that training for the ring puts too many restrictions on the ability to develop true self-defense techniques, he had never had the chance to try out his arsenal for real on a big, tough, skilled opponent.

Not having the chance to use his arsenal against anyone in a one on one fight is probably due to several factors.

1. The available arsenal has not been trained well.
2. The chosen arsenal does not work.
3. He didn't have the proper attributes to execute his arsenal

Besides for choice number two, much of the argument would fall upon the attributes and training of the individual and not the methods that he chooses. If a stronger, better-trained CMA guy defeats a weaker and poorly trained MMA guy, which of the three aforementioned choices would you make as a reason for the MMA guy's failure?

"His introduction into what happens when a person like this attacks you was a rude awakening for him."

It's always a rude awaking to get beat. When it happens, it's time to get better at what you practice or practice something else. The choice is up to the individuals involved.

Knifefighter, I'm not sure what your argument is, but your post seem to be directed towards myself or those who hold a similar perspective as me. But the clip of the San Soo vs. Marsh fight is really not a valid medium for proving MMA's methods superior. My original intent on this thread was attempting to explain why some might or might not chose to enter the ring from my point of view (however limited) with experience in both 'traditional" CMA and sporting events. However, if that was not your point, then I apologize for my assumption.

Also, I am not posting with the intent to belittle the San Soo guy. I am just using my interpretation (which could or could not be accurate) of what I saw in the clip to make a point in my argument.

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association

[Shooter]

KF, no need to apologize...you did ask before and I never replied.

The thing is, I don't know why that's so important. My competition experience in and of itself isn't going to make me a more credible Tai Chi player. It enhances my basic practice on a personal level, and thatÕs all. I don't stand on the legs of the people I train, and I donÕt drop names.

The point I was trying to make is this (just in case you care):

So what if a KF guy competes? I know more than a few KF guys who have competition experience in sub-wrestling and MMA.

Are they "identifiably good"? - WTF cares?

Is Kung Fu represented in MMA? - Yes.

Who's standard is applied in discerning an individual's Kung Fu skill? - The standard of the guy whoÕs actually in the ring.

It's an individual thing.

ThatÕs the point..sorry you missed it.

[Shooter]

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