This is what happens when you pull guard

[jmd161]

shoulder, elbow arm and wrist locks are all allowed in MMA and grappling , the only thing not allowed are finger locks...so are we now saying all chin na is based on finger locks if not we should be able to see it somewhere in action

grapplers thing along the lines of takedowns and control positions that work against resisiting opponents, and when chin na advocates cant post clips of it being used in grappling/mma/or class sparring tend to think its not very practical.

I've already said chin na is not just small joint manipulation... I think chin na is not used by MMA and grappler's because of the control issue. Grappler's tend to use locks and take downs that transition into follow up control and submission positions seamlessly. Chin na just doesn't transition to the seamless control positions on the ground as easily. Most TCMA styles were not intended to go to the ground... You could throw or take your opponent down but most styles aren't concerned about going to the ground with the opponent. Chin na is more based off breaking the limb and moving on, not holding the person there.

please show these hold and takedowns being used one on one, the only time i have seen them used is by police when they have superior numbers and have already taken the opponent down, limited his movement and pick him up with the holds...i cant remember eeing one clip of china na being used in a pressure situation one on one..can you?

I can't say I have other than in our training but I don't really watch chin na techniques of others.

[Frost]

I've already said chin na is not just small joint manipulation... I think chin na is not used by MMA and grappler's because of the control issue. Grappler's tend to use locks and take downs that transition into follow up control and submission positions seamlessly. Chin na just doesn't transition to the seamless control positions on the ground as easily. Most TCMA styles were not intended to go to the ground... You could throw or take your opponent down but most styles aren't concerned about going to the ground with the opponent. Chin na is more based off breaking the limb and moving on, not holding the person there.



I can't say I have other than in our training but I don't really watch chin na techniques of others.

how can you break the limb on the ground if you dont have control over him?

[jmd161]

how can you break the limb on the ground if you dont have control over him?

I didn't say you don't have control... I said that with chin na it doesn't transition to follow up grappling techniques as easily. If you're a grappler and your techniques don't transition seamlessly or smoothly why would you use them?

[Frost]

I didn't say you don't have control... I said that with chin na it doesn't transition to follow up grappling techniques as easily. If you're a grappler and your techniques don't transition seamlessly or smoothly why would you use them?

chin na as you describe it is designed to break a limb or take a guy down so you can hit him or break a limb

what is the difference between this and grappling in your mind?
standing grappling is designed to control your opponent and take him down (and in an MMA context to allow you to strike him as well)

grappling on the ground is designed to break limbs, or choke him out (in an MMA context it also allows you to hit him on the ground, whether standing or following him down. The fact he taps before the break is the only reason you dont see more breaks

so other than the fact we can point to hundreds of grappling clips where it is used full contact and against full resistance and its hard to find any videso of chin na doing the same..what in your mind is the difference between the two?

[Knifefighter]

I didn't say you don't have control... I said that with chin na it doesn't transition to follow up grappling techniques as easily.

What do they transition to?

[jmd161]

I'm headed to training I'll answer this when I get back.. I should have some chin na video from today's training as well...

[goju]

you seemed to be argueing look look the graices and BJJ teach this stuff so there must be a use for it....what we said was that outside the strict GJJ school (maybe only torrence i dont know) no one else really teaches them because they are low percentage...like all standing locks

you have someone who trained with royce for years (not someone who claimes to be an instructor under him) and various other grapplers telling you these things are low percentage and useless, doesnt that tell you something?

Does illiteracy run rampant on internet forums? LOL

No i wasn't argueing that because the gracies teach these locks ( which ive said more than once on here i didn't care for because they didnt work on someone who was flexible in the shoulders.) that there must be a use for them. Im just arguing that they are there and alot of tradtional gjj schools are big on them for their street defense.

No the guy i learned from DID study directly with Royce for years, Unless i went under a state hallucination for quitesome time It was a Royce gracie bjj affiliated school and Royce WAS THERE while i was attending grudge to promote students ranks.


But of course people like you and dale who have never step foot in grudge(or even in Colorado for that matter) would know more than someone who was actually there.

[Knifefighter]

But of course people like you and dale who have never step foot in grudge(or even in Colorado for that matter) would know more than someone who was actually there.

But of course emo-boys with a couple of months of training like you who have never set foot in the Gracie academy like to think they know more about the GJJ curriculum than someone who trained there for 8 years and who has a BB in the style.

[goju]

But of course emo-boys with a couple of months of training like you who have never set foot in the Gracie academy .

Aaaaaaand i never said i did .You're the one whos make wild claims about people you've never met and gyms you've never trained at.

[jmd161]

Let me address this first...

I was not able to shoot video today.... We trained at the Chinese Freemason's Association today and we don't have mats there. I'll try to come up with some video in the coming weeks.

chin na as you describe it is designed to break a limb or take a guy down so you can hit him or break a limb

what is the difference between this and grappling in your mind?

The difference between this and grappling would be the techniques you could follow up with while on the ground with the opponent. There is a plethora of techniques you can pull from while on the ground with your opponent with grappling.

That''s not the case with chin na... With chin na once you take them down and break the limb you need to get back to your feet asap!

It's just like a grappler who's facing a superior striker... your're not going to stay there and trade blows with the guy. You're going to take him down to your comfort level and where his striking is less effective. Most TCMA's have no ground game... so it's foolish to go to the ground where you're less effective.

standing grappling is designed to control your opponent and take him down (and in an MMA context to allow you to strike him as well)

grappling on the ground is designed to break limbs, or choke him out (in an MMA context it also allows you to hit him on the ground, whether standing or following him down. The fact he taps before the break is the only reason you dont see more breaks

so other than the fact we can point to hundreds of grappling clips where it is used full contact and against full resistance and its hard to find any videso of chin na doing the same..what in your mind is the difference between the two?

Again, I point out that chin na is not a system or style like BJJ, Aikido, Judo or JJJ. In most styles of TCMA they usually have maybe a hand full of chin na techniques. In some styles there entire complement of techniques maybe just wrist or finger locks... It depends on the style. Then it depends on how much the sifu knows and teaches himself. There is not a set number of techniques or a curriculum that is standard across styles.

What do they transition to?

When you're a grappler and you train wrestling, Judo and BJJ they all have something in common... grappling! The take downs in wrestling and throws in Judo transition well to the ground game in each art. Now you take techniques from chin na which doesn't have that same philosophy... There is no ground game to transition to! It would take someone with not only knowledge of chin na but with an exceptional back ground in grappling arts to work manageable transitions.

Why go through that when you can just cut out the middle man (TCMA) and train MMA?

I chose TCMA because it was a way for me to be different. I started out a wrestler because I've always been a big guy. I wanted to beat the little guys at their game sticking and moving... so I started training in striking arts I happen to like striking better!

With that being said we still go to the ground in our training! One of my training brothers who's a BB In Karate trained under Marcel Ferreira in BJJ for yrs. So we work to test our techniques against him on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

I was not able to shoot video today.... We trained at the Chinese Freemason's Association today and we don't have mats there. I'll try to come up with some video in the coming weeks.

Looking forward to seeing what you are doing with it.

That''s not the case with chin na... With chin na once you take them down and break the limb you need to get back to your feet asap!

If you just broke the opponent's arm or leg, why would you need to get back on your feet? It's not like he's going to be able to do a whole lot with a broken limb.

[jmd161]

If you just broke the opponent's arm or leg, why would you need to get back on your feet? It's not like he's going to be able to do a whole lot with a broken limb.

The thinking in TCMA is self defense you should be ready for another attacker... if one presents himself...

[Frost]

Aaaaaaand i never said i did .You're the one whos make wild claims about people you've never met and gyms you've never trained at.

actually you did you went of on one saying you know its taught because you trained it under a brown belt in GJJ, and the knifefighter pointed out he actually has a GJJ blackbelt and trained for years with royce.

now objectivally who knows more about GJJ, someone with a few months training in it under a brown belt...or a BJJ and GJJ blackbelt who actually spent years with the graices...who would you trust more to know about the curriculm and how those who trained in it felt about certain parts of it?

[Frost]

Let me address this first...

I was not able to shoot video today.... We trained at the Chinese Freemason's Association today and we don't have mats there. I'll try to come up with some video in the coming weeks.



The difference between this and grappling would be the techniques you could follow up with while on the ground with the opponent. There is a plethora of techniques you can pull from while on the ground with your opponent with grappling.

That''s not the case with chin na... With chin na once you take them down and break the limb you need to get back to your feet asap!.

i still dont see the difference, yes grappling has more techniques but the fundermental goal is the same, takedown and ground and pound or snap, now facing a skilled ground guy i might need all those different tecniques, but against someone clueless i can throw and kick the cr*p out of them, go knee on belly and punch the sh*t out of them or enter straight into a lock and break things, only one of the above calls for me to actually go to the ground with the guy and only for a moment so again i ask whats the fundermental differnece?

It's just like a grappler who's facing a superior striker... your're not going to stay there and trade blows with the guy. You're going to take him down to your comfort level and where his striking is less effective. Most TCMA's have no ground game... so it's foolish to go to the ground where you're less effective..

it may be foolish but you might not have a choice, and again most MMA strikers would much rather finish a lock easily standing rather than have to learn the ground so why dont you think we see more locks on downed opponents with one guy standing and finishing the other guy?

.[/QUOTE]

[goju]

actually you did you went of on one saying you know its taught because you trained it under a brown belt in GJJ, and the knifefighter pointed out he actually has a GJJ blackbelt and trained for years with royce.

yes and mongoloid logic doesnt work on those of us who can count above potato. But thanks for playing frost.

anow objectivally who knows more about GJJ, someone with a few months training in it under a brown belt...or a BJJ and GJJ blackbelt who actually spent years with the graices...who would you trust more to know about the curriculm and how those who trained in it felt about certain parts of it?

i would trust the coach i studied under who spent 12 years under royce's instruction and who taught at one of colorado's most acclaimed mma school vs some nobody fighter from yester year who hangs around online trolling forums for years because he has a napoleon complex

I mean after all ive seen my instructor actually in action rather than seeing nothing more than meaningless posturing online so i have all the reason in the world to take his advice over ANYONE here.

But im kooky that way.