Wing Chun "defeats" MMA

[Hardwork108]

I think it is both.

It's not just a matter of take anything (or any "art") and if you train it well, it will be "good" or you can "make it work." Some stuff is just crappy, it's poor technique, poor tactics, etc. And no matter how "well" you train it, it will always be crappy.

You must remember that sometimes a person who sees a technique as "poor" may be very wrong, as that very technique may be very effective, if the unlooker had a better understanding of the art he is looking at.

Modern martial arts have embraced the sport model, and in any "sport", the performance aspect (how well you actually play the game) is the paramount concern. This drives advancement in both training measures and in technical aspects (weeding out things that don't perform well and replacing them with things that do perform well).

The main relevance of your comment is in regards to the SPORTS FIGHTING SCENARIO.

TMAs are not traditionally performance-based like the modern sport-oriented arts.

I disagree. However, the TMA testing ground has traditionally (and mainly) been the battle field, or at least real encounters, rather than sports tournaments.

And that in a nutshell is why TMA practitioners typically don't perform well.

Correction, they don't perform well in sports tournaments, when they have not adapted their training to SPORT tournament fighting. Those who adapt, do pretty welL in SPORTS fighting.

[Hardwork108]

I guess the real question should not be why does X art suck, or why does X person suck but where is the failing in the art/ training method and mental/ physical attitude that is causing the martial artist to fail.

I don't care if traditional MA win or loose but think about it. Are modern MA superior or TMA failing in training standards.

That is a rather complicated issue.

What are we talking about when we say that TMA is failing? Its performance in the street, or the sports arena?

Of course, IMHO, the TMA scene is full of quacks and sharlatans, who could not fight their way out of paper bags. So, that can't be good. However, learning proper Wing Chun or any TMA, as it was designed to be studied, from a genuine sifu, will prepare one for the street scenario.

However, the sports scenario is another ball game. Let's put it this way. My training mindset is to finish an encounter as quickly as possible. I cannot focus my training on a perceived 10 round fight, in a sporting arena/context, when in the street I may be attacked by multiples, or at least have the possibility of multiples, including the appearance of weapons, while I am "sparring" with someone who is trying to kill me.

By the way, I live in Colombia.....

I believe that it is this difference in mindset that our sports/MMA/kickboxer friends here do not appreciate, and their reasoning that successful sports fighting abilities, even though beneficial to some degree, are going to AUTOMATICALLY be better than even a genuinely trained in a COMBAT(not sports) oriented TMA school, is false, and even dangerous (including for their own health).

The mental and physical attitude that you mentioned should be part of genuine TMA training, which should be different for a street scenario, that is, distinct from the sporting context.

[t_niehoff]

You must remember that sometimes a person who sees a technique as "poor" may be very wrong, as that very technique may be very effective, if the unlooker had a better understanding of the art he is looking at.

Bzzt. Wrong.

You don't need to understand any art or technique to see whether or not it works -- or works consistently.

BTW, what makes you think that YOU "understand" an art, like WCK, if you can't make it work?

The main relevance of your comment is in regards to the SPORTS FIGHTING SCENARIO.

The whole street-sport distinction is based on a fallacy. Skill works. It works on the street and it works in the ring, in the gym, in a cage, wherever. Skill works. Just like conditioning works.

I disagree. However, the TMA testing ground has traditionally (and mainly) been the battle field, or at least real encounters, rather than sports tournaments.

This is fantasy bullsh1t. TMAs were never tested on the battlefield. "Real encounters"? You think that a MMA fighter trying to knock your head off isn't real? Can you deal with his imaginary punches? His imaginary takedowns?

But I do agree, that TMAs were not tested in sport -- and that is why they are, for the most part, inferior to modern fighting arts. You see, sport is what makes the art BETTER. When Kano took traditional Japanese JJ and made it into a sport, judo, his guys dominated all the traditional guys. Today, you see those arts that became sports (like wrestling, judo, BJJ, boxing, MT, etc.) dominating because sport weeds out the nonsense (as it is performance based).

Correction, they don't perform well in sports tournaments, when they have not adapted their training to SPORT tournament fighting. Those who adapt, do pretty welL in SPORTS fighting.

If they can't do well in sport tournaments it is because they have little skill (like Moashan). Skill works. When they start training for sport, they start developing skill.

[t_niehoff]

For those who believe in the street-vs-sport ("real fighting") notion:

Back to Bagua (Moashan) vs. muay thai (Nakmeezy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

That was sport, right? And Moashan sucked. Both in skill and in conditioning, right.

Now listen to what Moashan says, particularly at 30 s in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bxOTmOZELA

"Fighting for the ring is a specialty . . . but training for health and self defense, and training for the ring are two different things."

Then again at 1:07

"I had been training to fight light . . . this is a street-thing, a complete street thing."

And ESPECIALLY at 4:35

"For getting in the ring you have to train . . . for life and death purposes, that's something different . . . ."

Now go back and watch his PERFORMANCE, how he had no power, no skill, no technique, nothing he did really worked.

Now, let's take him from the ring and put him on the street -- will he now have power, now have skill, have technique, be able to make everything work? No. He'll suck just as badly. Even if it were life-and-death.

Yet, he thinks he should train really hard for the ring, but NOT for life-and-death!

Skill works. Conditioning works. Skill and conditioning come from good, solid training. That skill and conditioning can be used anywhere -- if you have it. If you don't, then you can't use it, whether the ring or street or life-and-death. This is what Moashan and the street-sport guys don't grasp -- it's not about street-vs-sport or "real fighting", that's a red-herring. It is about skill and conditioning.

[sihing]

Ultimately Terrence is absolutely correct. MMA is the best venue to deal with pressure (=any type of attack one may face), whether it is in the octagon or on the street, simply for the fact that MMA introduces the most realistic/safest method of facing this pressure in training as well as how often it exposes it's participants to that pressure.

The thing is not all want to train in MMA, for whatever reasons, maybe because they have a disability, maybe there is a prejudice towards it, or maybe they just don't like it. There is a large MMA school here in my city, but I still have new students joining my small club. Why? Because of personal choice, they went to the MMA school, and didn't like it. I also have people try out my class and choose not to join, which again is due to personal choice.

WC is not as complete a training method as MMA, in that we mostly function in the stand up realm, nor do we put ourselves under as much pressure and as consistently as MMA guys do, but there still is a level of effectiveness in the WC method. What it does do is bring about skill sets and attributes that can be effective if the practitioner 1) understands what it is they are doing in training WC, 2) practice allot, 3) after some practice and absorption of the WC skill set, put it under some real pressure to see where the deficiency is and what is working as well, 4) repeat process up to the individuals level of satisfaction. Most people's level of satisfaction is not at the world class level, since most of us are not born with the fighters mentality, physical gifts and inclination to want to fight (liking the activity of fighting per say).

As WC practitioners we can also adapt it to a modern methodology, which includes pad and bag work, physical fitness conditioning, isolated and full on sparring, while still practicing the traditional curriculum of forms, chi/laap sau, pole/knife work and so forth. The difference between the two is that one is the acquiring of the skill, the other is about learning how to apply that skill set realistically. Allot of this depends on the persons interest level and time commitment. Some just fall in love with the art and this is why they practice it.

Fighting effectively in the end comes down to the persons individual will to survive and overcome, the tools one learns in any Martial Art just allow this to happen more efficiently and effectively.

James

[Hardwork108]

Bzzt. Wrong.

You don't need to understand any art or technique to see whether or not it works -- or works consistently.

WRONG, you DO!

If your experience is limited to kickboxing and MMA and then you come across techniques that look strange to you, then you might assume that they did not work. That is if you are a pompous "so and so"!

BTW, what makes you think that YOU "understand" an art, like WCK, if you can't make it work?

You are assuming that I, and no one, can make Wing Chun work, because you, yourself were incapable of making it work? LOL!

The whole street-sport distinction is based on a fallacy.

Correction, thinking that sport fighting will make automatically make you superior to a well trained TMA guy, is the fallacy.

Furthermore, your fallacy exists because there are so few genuine TMA training venues out there, meaning that you, yourself have never trained genuine TMA, to make the outrageous claims that you always seem to be making.

Skill works. It works on the street and it works in the ring, in the gym, in a cage, wherever. Skill works.

Skill can mean different things in different contexts. Of course, no one is denying that skill in contact sports fighting has its relevance in the street. However, it is also good to consider that valid TMA schools will include contact fighting practice as part of their training program.

Just like conditioning works.

Oh really? Are you sure? Wow, who would have thought that condtioning works......LOL!

This is fantasy bullsh1t. TMAs were never tested on the battlefield.

That is interesting because there is still the fact that some TCMA founders were army generals, and presumably soldiers.

The Japanese Samurais had trained in the art of Ju jutsu, while the Japanese army of the early 20th century adopted Shotokan karate for its miliatary unarmed combat training, and that is according to your own "friend", Steve Morris.

"Real encounters"?

Yes, real encounters like the ones on battle fields; Hong Kong gangster fights (Wing Chun, CLF, etc); Bodyguard duties (Baji quan), and so on....

You think that a MMA fighter trying to knock your head off isn't real? Can you deal with his imaginary punches? His imaginary takedowns?

Of course it is. No one is denying the relevance of contact sports fighting to street fighting.

You are just failing to grasp my point, because you have never really trained in TMAs in your life. So, I understand your failings. Unfortunately, most kung fu tagged MMA-ists who post here are the same as you.

But I do agree, that TMAs were not tested in sport -- and that is why they are, for the most part, inferior to modern fighting arts. You see, sport is what makes the art BETTER. When Kano took traditional Japanese JJ and made it into a sport, judo, his guys dominated all the traditional guys.

Well, they were not participating in unarmed combat with JJJ trained Samurais (read professional killers) on the battlefield, were they? It has all to do with context and the mindset of the TMA-ist you are fighting.

You take some street fight hardened young man, from one of the Colombian street gangs, near where I live, and teach him some serious TMA methodology and put him against an MMA guy with the same amount of training, in a STREET SCENARIO, then I bet that even you would not be so sure of the answers.....LOL

Today, you see those arts that became sports (like wrestling, judo, BJJ, boxing, MT, etc.) dominating because sport weeds out the nonsense (as it is performance based).

I agree that a lot of TMA stuff would not work in the sports ring, and that would be because none of them were designed for sporting entertainment. However, TCMA methodologies that have been ADOPTED for the ring scenario, do pretty well, as I am sure that you have noticed.

If they can't do well in sport tournaments it is because they have little skill (like Moashan).

In a world full of Mcdojos, Mckwoons and kung fu franchises with false masters, grand masters and etc. I do not know why you give credence to Moashan's representation of the whole style of Bagua, or is it the whole of the TCMAs?

Skill works.

Skill works and so do skills taught in genuine TCMA kwoons or dojos. You don't know this fact because you have never seriously trained in one, have you?

When they start training for sport, they start developing skill.

Correct, and that skill is primary relevance is to sports fighting, which is also relevant to street fighting to a good degree. No one is denying that!

[Dragonzbane76]

My training mindset is to finish an encounter as quickly as possible.

and you think someone in the ring wants to play around in the ring for 5 rounds? They want to finish as fast as possible. No one that gets in there wants it to go on for that long. The plan is to finish as quickly as possible.

when in the street I may be attacked by multiples

and training in modern MA's won't give you the skills necessary for this? The conditioning? mind set? It's not a far leap to apply techniques from the "ring/cage" to any street scenario.

thinking that form work, and what if encounter training is going to save you in the "street" mentality that A LOT of TMA schools teach is dangerous IMO.

[tigershorty]

(this post kind of overlaps some other threads on here about the forms/our concept of traditional training, too..so bare with me)

sports are totally 100% translatable to fighting, even if you're not talking about sport fighting.

everyone does some version of forms in practice, especially alone practice. different levels of drilling, group training-1 on 1, 3 on 3, 5 on 5..watching your swing on video, practicing plays, shot technique, etc etc.

however, you can never be great if you don't compete/get in game experience. all that practice is to get you ready to play. How many people train to fight and never actually fight? Most of us.

i think both are relevant, tho - even the stars still practice. im sure even mma guys have their own forms (shadowing boxing, etc) the difference is...in sports, you have to actually perform, and when you don't there is a metric for success (you win, score a lot of points, put the ball in the hole) or you lose- and most everyone in sports agrees on what is correct/right. there is common knowledge. Everyone here does wing chun and can't agree on basic ideas like tan sao.

that's why MMA guys beat our asses. thats why MMA is popular. thats why sports stars have gotten better every year and TMA has gotten worse every year. people need to have realistic expectations and be honest about their training...or **** like that muay thai guy beating the crap out of the bagua guy happens.

unfort... people started putting the wrong thing on the pedestal like forms when really the key was training and conditioning. marketing got a lot of people confused about the goal, it alienated them, they went to mma or quit. the few who did stay were so invested mentally or finacially that they just brainwashed themselves...and then you have the new crowd that it catered to. And that's the reality a lot of people aren't admitting to...a lot of us are those people. Not that you can't learn to really fight, but if you think you're gonna be an MMA level fighter practicing 3 times a week, 1 hour at a time with chi sao or sui nim tao..you're mistaken.

also, i don't think TMA schools train the way traditional martial arts schools trained typically. The idea of rooftop fighting bare fist is just such not a common reality anymore for most students or even their teachers.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . This is fantasy bullsh1t. TMAs were never tested on the battlefield. "Real encounters"? . . .

These are the kinds of unsubstantiated statements that make me wonder about your understanding of combat. MANY TMAs were used in warfare/combat throughout history. I'll presume that you'd consider a Samurai swordsman to be an MMA fighter.
MMA/gage fighting is one of the best way to test you skills but there are rules. MMA fighters are not invincible in the streets. Especially against a boot party.

[Phil Redmond]

(Now I know the wiki isn't the best source for acurate info but at least it can be a stepping stone for further research).

First of al MMA comes from TMAs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts
(For the MMA jockriders Pankration was way before MMA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration )

TMAs used in warfare:
Kalarippayattu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalarippayattu
http://www.yourdiscovery.com/martial...ta/index.shtml

Muay Boran:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muay_Boran

Samurai:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samurai

Jiujitsu:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiujitsu

Filipino Martial arts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filipino_martial_arts
I found so many more from places like Iran, etc.

[HumbleWCGuy]

For T. It is really about just spouting a few platitudes. Stuff that he doesn't really know about (most things) are fantasy. Next he will accuse you or not training realistically, otherwise you would agree with him.

[Hardwork108]

and you think someone in the ring wants to play around in the ring for 5 rounds?

Of course not. Everyone wants to win as quickly as possible and get out of the fight with minimum injuries, but that is not my point!

They want to finish as fast as possible.

Of course they do.

No one that gets in there wants it to go on for that long.

Of course they don't.

The plan is to finish as quickly as possible.

Of course it is......[/quote]

HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is that because of the typical sports scenarios the fights last LONGER!.

That is the nature of the beast

Of course, there are exceptions, and those exceptions occur more often,or less often, depending on the given modality of contact fighting, but he fact is that he average sports fight, lasts longer than a street fight!

Furhtermore, in a sports fight you are never worried about second or third parties entering the dipute. As a result, you "take your time" to make your enteries and so on.

Also, you may not think twice about taking someone down. After all, the ring floor is softer than cement, and it is clean, and you are not worried about anyone else coming in and kicking your head, or introducing a weapon.

I hope that you see where I am coming from.....

and training in modern MA's won't give you the skills necessary for this? The conditioning?

The conditioning will come in handy in a multiple attacker scenario.

mind set?

The mind set may be ok, but what about habits. These people train intensely to be successful in the ring. The ring training may give them habits that might just get them killed in a multiple attack scenario!

It's not a far leap to apply techniques from the "ring/cage" to any street scenario.

If you read my previous post carefully, then you will see that I do not deny that ring training is beneficial for street encounters. The point is PROPER TMA training will do the same in its own way, and perhaps better in certain areas, just as the ring training may be better in other areas.

thinking that form work, and what if encounter training is going to save you in the "street" mentality that A LOT of TMA schools teach is dangerous IMO.

I am not talking about "A LOT" of TMA schools. Again, most TMA teachers would not know real TMA if it fell on their heads!

[Tringsh]

The biggest trap for some fighters and martial artists is that they limit themselves into believing there is only one application for their specific style or technique. I believe that's what happened with the aforementioned fight with the MT fighter. If you limit yourself just to stay true to the style you are learning it's likely you're hindering yourself.

Wing Chun in my opinion is not a practical fighting style on its own but I have been able to use it while kickboxing and find it extremely beneficial for reaction times and counters.

I believe people that disregard an entire fighting system are short sighted and ignorant especially if they have never tried it.

[tigershorty]

i agree with that, and also- you should always do what works for you and your natural talents. if you're tall and long, savat or some kind of long range kicking might be good for you while you're able.

i think wing chun is nice cause you can grow old with it like golf. but i do agree, it compliments other styles nicely.

i heard a story about my sigung (sifu's sifu?) kicking a boxer in the face when he came to challenge him. now, he's a wing chun guy, so why did he kick him in the face? because he could and he knew other martial arts. big deal. people should have FUN and do what works for them.

[Dragonzbane76]

If you read my previous post carefully, then you will see that I do not deny that ring training is beneficial for street encounters. The point is PROPER TMA training will do the same in its own way, and perhaps better in certain areas, just as the ring training may be better in other areas.

sorry didn't read your other posts before the last. I can see where you are coming from in area's. When you first waded in I thought you were waving the MMA meathead wand around.