Wing Chun "defeats" MMA

[Eric_H]

Actually, having once trained with Wayfaring for a few years, I can vouch that he does know what he's talking about. As far as I know, he's consistently trained with the best he could in any area (regardless of art) and has always kept a very realistic head about what works and what doesn't. Just because he doesn't put TCMA training up on some untouchable pedestal doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I think some healthy skepticism might do you some good HW108. And I say that as a disciple to a TCMA system.

[Wayfaring]

Actually, what you say describes ME PERFECTLY as a TCMA cultist.

I am very "huffy". All I do is post in a TCMA forum, while I practice the TCMAs, meaning, that I have a reason to be here, because I have a point of reference. And that point of reference is my mom's basement. Always has been, always will be. My mom serves my TCMA sifu tea and lets him down here to train me. Thanks mom!

So, it is you, and the likes of you, who feel obliged to come into this KUNG FU Forum, and get me all "huffy" by about how there should be "functionality" in your martial arts training methodologies. What do you know? Have you ever been to my mom's basement?

Again, if you ever did, then you and your kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, are the ones who are "trespassing" here, and are over your heads, I might add, not the other way round!

It's MY mom, not yours. And it's HER basement.

All those who train in genuine TCMA schools, learn to fight realistically. I know, because my mom told me so, and her basement is the PERFECT representation of ALL fighting situations.

YOu would have known that fact, if you had experienced genuine kung fu training in my mom's basement. That is if I didn't kick you out first because I'm huffy.....

sigh. here we go again. fixed that for you.

[Dragonzbane76]

Secondly, reading clueless posts such as the one you made above, proves to me, and everyone else who reads them, how much out of touch and lacking in TCMA knowledge, some of you MMA-ist/Cross trainers, really are.

rinse and repeat/copy paste...

So, it is you, and the likes of you, who feel obliged to come into this KUNG FU Forum, and get "fluffy" about the "functionality" of your MMA methodologies.

Again, you and your kung fu-clueless MMA-ists, are the ones who are "trespassing" here, and are over your heads, I might add, not the other way round!

here you go again tell people what they should do. I think you forget or are just suffering from stupidity that this is a free forum. And we can all thank what ever gods/being that you have no control over anything. If it was up to you we would all be sitting in our closets wearing tinfoil hats muttering about the end of days and the "evil" empire, while debasing everyone and anyone that they have no idea what TCMA's are.

[Dave McKinnon]

Yaddah Yaddah Yaddha....

Something about never being in your mom's basement but she has some nice junk in her trunk and or she lets me pack some stuff in her trunk.

Yaddah yaddah yaddah ....

[Wayfaring]

Something about never being in your mom's basement but she has some nice junk in her trunk and or she lets me pack some stuff in her trunk.

Just for you McKinnon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEe_eraFWWs

[Hardwork108]

I think some healthy skepticism might do you some good HW108. And I say that as a disciple to a TCMA system.

With all due respect, I would rather get my TCMA information from people who have actually trained in genuine TCMA schools, rather that get it from great and fantastic MMA-ists, who are utterly and hopelessly clueless about the real kung fu training, because seemingly they are basing their "kung fu wisdom" on their Mcdojo/kwoon TCMA experience......

[Hardwork108]

rinse and repeat/copy paste...



here you go again tell people what they should do. I think you forget or are just suffering from stupidity that this is a free forum. And we can all thank what ever gods/being that you have no control over anything. If it was up to you we would all be sitting in our closets wearing tinfoil hats muttering about the end of days and the "evil" empire, while debasing everyone and anyone that they have no idea what TCMA's are.

Dragonzbane, my advise to you as usual, is to get a life; find a woman quickly and get L@id, as it might stop you babbling incoherently for at least a short while.....

[Hardwork108]

sigh. here we go again. fixed that for you.

Listen, please don't think that I don't find your clueless take on the TCMAs amusing, and even hilarious, but as entertaining as your confused TCMA "wisdom" may be to us genuine kung fu practitioners, I am going to be unselfish and ask you to start focusing on "fixing" your kung fu knowledge, so that you don't become the laughing stock of all genuine TCMA practitioners here.

I mean we have the likes of Dragonzbane and Frost (and others), to keep us entertained, so we don't need more "victims".

So, I hope that you take my advice and if you do, then let me thank you again for all the laughs that you have provided us so far. We will miss you for sure......

[Wayfaring]

Listen, please don't think that I don't find your clueless take on the TCMAs amusing, and even hilarious, but as entertaining as your confused TCMA "wisdom" may be to us genuine kung fu practitioners, I am going to be unselfish and ask you to start focusing on "fixing" your kung fu knowledge, so that you don't become the laughing stock of all genuine TCMA practitioners here.

I'm all about "fixing" my martial arts knowledge and ability. As a hobbyist. I get a little better each day.

I mean we have the likes of Dragonzbane and Frost (and others), to keep us entertained, so we don't need more "victims".

Don't sell yourself short here, HW. Your ability to entertain through dumb@$$ comments far exceeds Dragonbane, Frost, and most of the others as well.

[k gledhill]

I think saving your life, is its own 'reality'....going into a guard on the bjj minds set for 20mmin is unrealistic.....they altered UFC fights after seeing guys [gracie] doing 20 min responses to being taken down....in a bar fight thats 'your life' 20 seconds will determine if you have permanent brain damage nor not... the cage is an illusion, whereby you have a 'sporting' exchange. Weights are equal,everything is equal....sporting... thers is no weapons in the mix, no extra opponent , your always fighting ONE guy..easy, who needs MA for that ?



doesnt exist in the real world....real you think real is 1 on 1 in a gym with gloves..etc, ?

wrong...your f u c ki ng delusional.....bad men, [comma], will kill you.................

[Hardwork108]

I'm all about "fixing" my martial arts knowledge and ability. As a hobbyist. I get a little better each day.

No one said that your MMA is bad. However, you need a lot, lot, more "fixing", when it comes to TCMA knowledge.

Don't sell yourself short here, HW.

Don't worry, I never do!

Your ability to entertain through dumb@$$ comments far exceeds Dragonbane, Frost, and most of the others as well.

Except for the fact that my comments on the TCMAs are based on genuinely training them and hence having a point of reference, in contrast to your, Frost's and Dragonzbane's (and others') comments that are no more than P!ssing in the dark, hoping not to miss the toilet, so as to impress each other, with statements based more on your MMA and cross training knowledge, mixed with the usual Mcdojo training, than any valid study of a given TCMA methodology......

You have to realize that when you MMA-ist and cross trainers go to genuine TCMA threads, and in not so many words, tell all genuine kung fu practitioners that what they do is wrong and useless,and can only be improved by the methodologies that you practice, it reflects bad on you and your sense of self confidence and shows distinct insecurity, and as always, demonstrates your minimal understanding of the TCMAs, exposing how out of your depth all or you really are!

Just saying.........

[Dragonzbane76]

Dragonzbane, my advise to you as usual, is to get a life; find a woman quickly and get L@id, as it might stop you babbling incoherently for at least a short while...

repeat repeat repeat.... my advise to you is to come up with some originality. anywho,,,, I'm very happy with my life and I get great laughs everyday from your idiotic postings.

You have to realize that when you MMA-ist and cross trainers go to genuine TCMA threads, and in not so many words, tell all genuine kung fu practitioners that what they do is wrong and useless,and can only be improved by the methodologies that you practice, it reflects bad on you and your sense of self confidence and shows distinct insecurity, and as always, demonstrates your minimal understanding of the TCMAs, exposing how out of your depth all or you really are!

It's funny that half the people you call mma-ist are more traditional than most. You ever wonder that maybe these so called "mma-ists" learned something you have yet to learn in cross training? There are a lot of them, odds would be that maybe they stumbled onto something.

No one is disagreeing with you that this is a kung fu forum... And I've yet to see where anyone is telling anyone what they HAVE to do... I think you are missing the point or misunderstanding, THEY ARE CALLED OPINIONS. everyone has them, if you do not like opinions then do not listen, no one is coming to your house with a gun and forcing you to cross train.

AGAIN this is an open forum. We know that with your nazi background you really don't understand the concept of freedom so we are willing to overlook somethings.

[t_niehoff]

I think saving your life, is its own 'reality'....

Yet, how people BELIEVE they are going to go about that is often highly unrealistic.

going into a guard on the bjj minds set for 20mmin is unrealistic.....

There are no fights in MMA where someone is in guard for 20 minutes (rounds only last 5 minutes).

Besides that, let me ask you -- what do you BELIEVE you are going to do if someone takes you down and tries to keep you down (whether intentionally or accidentally)? Do you think that you will magically be able to deal with that or do you think that you should train to develop skills to deal with that?

they altered UFC fights after seeing guys [gracie] doing 20 min responses to being taken down....in a bar fight thats 'your life' 20 seconds will determine if you have permanent brain damage nor not... the cage is an illusion, whereby you have a 'sporting' exchange. Weights are equal,everything is equal....sporting... thers is no weapons in the mix, no extra opponent , your always fighting ONE guy..easy, who needs MA for that ?

As I pointed out to Eric, having a skill and choosing how to use it are two different things. In a cage fight, you may choose to use your skills in a way to your advantage, and in a bar fight, you may choose to use your skills in a different way to your advantage. Either way -- bar fight or cage fight -- the ground skills you need are the same (escapes, pins, locks, chokes, etc.), and the evidence is overwhelming that sport training (performance based) is the best way to develop those skills.

doesnt exist in the real world....real you think real is 1 on 1 in a gym with gloves..etc, ?

wrong...your f u c ki ng delusional.....bad men, [comma], will kill you.................

Oh, and you think doing chi sao or forms or whatever else you do is "real"?

The point is that anytime we fight, whether in a gym or in the street or bar, we bring our conditioning and our skills -- or lack thereof -- to that fight. The better conditioned and the better skilled we are, the better our chances. That conditioning and those skills will work anywhere.

If you can't deal with a "1 on 1 in a gym", you're certainly not going to be able to deal with your "badmen."

[Wayfaring]

No one said that your MMA is bad. However, you need a lot, lot, more "fixing", when it comes to TCMA knowledge.

Please explain, in non cult-like words, with rational explanation and thought, why this huge delineation exists in your mind.

What "special knowledge" is it you feel that exists in TCMA that does not apply towards MMA training?

Except for the fact that my comments on the TCMAs are based on genuinely training them and hence having a point of reference, in contrast to your, Frost's and Dragonzbane's (and others') comments that are no more than P!ssing in the dark, hoping not to miss the toilet, so as to impress each other, with statements based more on your MMA and cross training knowledge, mixed with the usual Mcdojo training, than any valid study of a given TCMA methodology......

You have to realize that when you MMA-ist and cross trainers go to genuine TCMA threads, and in not so many words, tell all genuine kung fu practitioners that what they do is wrong and useless,and can only be improved by the methodologies that you practice, it reflects bad on you and your sense of self confidence and shows distinct insecurity, and as always, demonstrates your minimal understanding of the TCMAs, exposing how out of your depth all or you really are!

Just saying.........

Your "comments" tend towards generalization and labeling. Which is very faction or cult oriented. Which is kind of interesting that you obviated that in one of your posts here when no one previously brought it up.

I don't tell whoever it is you think are "genuine kung fu practitioners" that what they do is wrong. It may surprise you to discover that I ..... gasp ..... still practice forms. I just don't do it while sparring. Well, not totally true. I have been known to bust out a few moves from 5 animal forms in the midst of sparring. For sheer entertainment purposes.

[t_niehoff]

Sport training is realistic in the contexts of sports only. Just like with Kendo, you can build a lot of the same body mechanics and high percentage techniques that go into being a swordsman, however doing kendo is not the same as fighting with a real sword.

Of course it is not the same. But the SKILLS you will use are the same.

You do understand that you can't really train realistically with "real" swords. People would end up injuring and killing each other very quickly, and you'd never develop much in the way of skill. The shinai permits people to realistically train (move with full power) and so develop realistic skills.

It's the same "principle" with empty hands -- boxing is not a street fight. But the skills you develop via boxing are realistic skills and will "work" in any realistic situation.

By the same logic, doing Judo where you pin the guy is not the same as throwing him on to his head and breaking his neck. Can Judo help you build skills that help you to do so? Yes. Does it build that specific skill? No, it's too dangerous for sport. At the end of the day, there's more in common than apart with throwing the guy to pin vs kill, but they're not the same.

The whole idea of throwing him on his head and breaking his neck is a fantasy. Except in rare accidental cases, it won't happen. So training to do something that will never work is a waste of time. Instead, train to throw him by really throwing him. Kimura was feared for his osoto gari -- he gave his randori partners concussions.

Terence, you do have a history of making comments from one side and then the other. I remember a Chi sao thread that i think somebody linked in their sig all about that. Just bustin' yer balls man, lighten up.

No, I don't. I am very consistent in my views, it's just that people may not see the consistency because they don't understand (intentionally) what I am saying.

See that's kind of the different points we're arguing. You achieved in sport the ability to gain the superior position. By your own argument, since you haven't actually trained to break his arm with it, how do you know you can do so under pressure/resistance/etc? YOU CAN'T! You can only guarantee you can achieve a superior position under pressure/resistance which makes breaking or submitting much easier.

If I lift you over my head, do you think I can say that I know that I can drop you?

You can know because you feel it. People tap because they "know" (feel it) that they will get choked out or have joints broken. Even then, people sometimes don't tap (thinking the angle is off or the pressure insufficient or whatever) and injuries happen. I've been choked out, and have choked people out. I've had my arm pop, and popped some people's arms. I had my knee dislocated. From this experience, I know a kimura will wrench a shoulder or a RNC will put you out.

The Key is to both train what you can safely, and then do supplemental training that makes the dangerous stuff easier. If you're really going to do finger strikes, training them to be able to take impact, to break arms, snapping twigs that are resistance similar to human arm, cutting through tatami that has resistance like human skin+bone, etc. You have to find a substitute when the stuff is too dangerous to get you as close as you can. Sports don't do that.

The KEY is if you aren't already doing it, you won't be able to do it.

Much of the dangerous stuff is really just training to fail. People who train finger strikes, for instance, are really just training to get their fingers broken. They are training to fail.

For superior position training and non-lethal/breaking/puncturing techniques, I cannot argue, it's true.

What's with this "no-lethal" stuff?

Skill and conditioning works. How you use those skills is up to you.

Eh, that is arguable. I'd rather fight a skilled guy who doesn't want to fight than a strong unskilled one who really wants to kill me. Old chinese saying has it that first is spirit, then conditioning, and then skill come in order of importance when dealing w/ hand to hand fighting. I agree with it.

Much of those old chinese sayings (like Calgon) are nonsense.

He actually nailed him in the eye a number of times, but the one that really connected ended it. Being he was a fighter in EliteXC, I don't know if you can legitimately call him a scrub, he may not be in the top, but to be able to fight in a national promotion like that he's got to be above scrub level.

I never said he was a scrub. I said that even with scrubs accidents happen.

IF I am able to land a jab effectively, AND IF my fingers are toughened up enough not to break should i miss, what makes you think it's not a valid technique?

This is typical TMA-type thinking -- IF this and IF that, then I BELIEVE . . . The answer is: that's all THEORY. So, when it comes to fighting for your life (as you can't do this stuff in sport), are you going to bet on a theory? Or, are you going to use what you KNOW will work because you've done it for real thousands of times?

IF YOU ARE NOT ALREADY DOING IT, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO DO IT (certainly not consistently).

Is it lower percentage? Sure. CAN I do it? Absolutely. IF you are focused on ONLY the highest percentage technique is this a bad choice for you? Yeah. But it's the gamble of lower percentage vs increased damage.

There is a real question about the increased damage (I've been poked hard, accidentally, in the eye several times and, while one time I had my retina detach - and had to get laser surgery - I still finished my training that evening). And the other aspect of low percentage is that it has a very good chance of failing, and when it fails, it leaves you exposed -- so not only don't you do something effective to your opponent but now you leave yourself open to having something done to you.

Going back to our earlier battlefield discussion, if you HAVE to take your opponent out quickly because of extra factors (he has buddies coming, you have to cover for your buddy who just got injured, or whatever) you combine your HIGHEST PERCENTAGE with the most potential for INCREASED DAMAGE. That's only logical.

So your theory is when really in danger, not to do what you train doing, that you know will work, that gives you your best (highest percentage) chance, but to do something that is low percentage, that you never really train, and so has a much smaller chance of working in the HOPE that not only will it work but that it will work better (increased damage)?