Chen Taijiquan Various Form and Application Videos

[Mo Ling]

Yet you have videos on your website for potential students to peruse. But you don't care about the sort of students who would make the informed decision of perusing them before spending their time visiting your school?

Interesting.

I am sure you can twist it to create a debate, but it is pretty simple really.
The videos are there, people can see it is authentic Taijiquan including both martial methods and all the other health related aspects etc. That is enough for someone who is looking for that.

Interested parties with a bit of wisdom generally understand that the full martial teaching in Taijiquan is not given away for free in 5 minutes on the net in a video. If it is the type of person who thinks there is no martial value whatsoever in those videos that reflects that they will not have the patience for this training anyhow and probably want 5-minute fight skill. What is shown in those videos is closely related to the pace things might look like for students. If they don't like it, it is best if they don't waste their and our time.

It is not like we put up empty force videos, let's be real. It has already been said by some here that apparently those videos do have something of value for martial arts so I do not see the point debating that. If there is something of value, less than ideal presentation notwithstanding then people can have the maturity to actually meet someone if they are interested or move on. I have no regret whatsoever on that count.

[KC Elbows]

Try using gloves.

[taai gihk yahn]

You guys assume a LOT, and this is a problem found exclusively on the internet.

LOL - I think you should look in the mirror; to wit:

[B]The very important bit that you seem to have lost sight of is that the only people who see 'red flags' from slow demonstrations that do not feature 'real' attacks are people who spend their time frequently on internet martial arts forums.

I can't believe that you don't take into account that there is a sizable subset of practitioners who regularly train live under pressure from resisting opponents (whether MMA, TCMA, MT or any other system that trains in this maner) who would see this as a major concern; so I don't know where you are getting this particular perspective from at all...

point is this: showing techniques worked out on a compliant individual is certainly interesting; and quite frankly, what you do show appears to be valid; but in this day and age, the level of discussion amongst serious practitioners tends to focus on how stuff works against resisting opponents working unpredictably, and that's just how it is - it's the zeitgeist, if you will; now, you certainly are under NO obligation to show anything beyond that, and no one has ANY expectations of you to do so; the "request" is based purely on the fact that this is where many people's head are at these days, given so many years of people providing compliant demos up the wazoo, but not having the abiity to work their stuff in a mroe realistic context; now, that may or may not be the case w/you, but one really has no way of knowing this, right? but since hat you show appears to be valid, the "request" is proferred (because if what you showed was pure crap, no one would ask that in a serious way - so it really is a validation of sorts from independent views - and again, i KNOW u don't care, u don't need anyone else's validation, etc., etc.); anyway, point is that compliant demos just don't provide the same level of "evidence" as they used to, regardless of content;

now, maybe there is something about what you demo in a compliant manner that will cause some people to be able to extrapolate that if really attacked, you'd be able to pull this stuff of; personally, I don't know one way or the other, but IMPE, I no longer give benefit of the doubt; and of course I know that you don't care if I do or not, I get it, it's just conversation;

again, in general, I liked what you show; it is very similar to the way that I interpret and apply the pre-Beijing Yang system I practice; as such, it would be nice to see it done in a more realistic context; and if you r not interested in providing that, it's fine of course, and so the discussion ends there;

[Mo Ling]

LOL - I think you should look in the mirror; to wit:


I can't believe that you don't take into account that there is a sizable subset of practitioners who regularly train live under pressure from resisting opponents (whether MMA, TCMA, MT or any other system that trains in this maner) who would see this as a major concern; so I don't know where you are getting this particular perspective from at all...

point is this: showing techniques worked out on a compliant individual is certainly interesting; and quite frankly, what you do show appears to be valid; but in this day and age, the level of discussion amongst serious practitioners tends to focus on how stuff works against resisting opponents working unpredictably, and that's just how it is - it's the zeitgeist, if you will; now, you certainly are under NO obligation to show anything beyond that, and no one has ANY expectations of you to do so; the "request" is based purely on the fact that this is where many people's head are at these days, given so many years of people providing compliant demos up the wazoo, but not having the abiity to work their stuff in a mroe realistic context; as such, compliant demos just don't provide the same level of "evidence" as they used to;

now, maybe there is something about what you demo in a compliant manner that will cause some people to be able to extrapolate that if really attacked, you'd be able to pull this stuff of; personally, I don't know one way or the other, but IMPE, I no longer give benefit of the doubt; and of course I know that you don't care if I do or not, I get it, it's just conversation;

again, in general, I liked what you show; it is very similar to the way that I interpret and apply the pre-Beijing Yang system I practice; as such, it would be nice to see it done in a more realistic context; and if you r not interested in providing that, it's fine of course, and so the discussion ends there;

No problem really. Maybe I am just a bit dated and a bit traditional. The people I learned from would never have shown nearly as much as I have and that is the tradition. In the old days they would have shown simply nothing at all, and there are reasons for that. Many of those reasons are still valid today, so I might be a bit old school, and I can live with that.

I am not looking to compete with or service the commercial martial art school model. The people who really want to fight and see visual evidence before meeting people are probably best suited for those schools that are less traditional, and offer faster, less detailed training roads.

In my experience you get what you work for. Those who need to see realistic fighting in a video have many many places to go train that will offer them a quick effective fighting course. Taijiquan is simply not that and I do not see any point in pretending it is. None of my teachers would even discuss that with prospective students. As far as what is known as 'gongfu' goes, we are actually well past it's heyday. Regardless of the changing demands of the internet public, the changes in gongfu culture are not positive, in fact it is a difficult thing to preserve at all now. I don't have any reason to believe that giving up the old views that have well founded reasons supporting them simply to suit a new generation of impatience is valuable.

I respect the old ways and what my teachers taught me. That is not about to change, especially given the practical value I see from it daily. My way is not for everyone, and mostly the gongfu is too hard anyhow.

[taai gihk yahn]

No problem really. Maybe I am just a bit dated and a bit traditional. The people I learned from would never have shown nearly as much as I have and that is the tradition. In the old days they would have shown simply nothing at all, and there are reasons for that. Many of those reasons are still valid today, so I might be a bit old school, and I can live with that.

I am not looking to compete with or service the commercial martial art school model. The people who really want to fight and see visual evidence before meeting people are probably best suited for those schools that are less traditional, and offer faster, less detailed training roads.

In my experience you get what you work for. Those who need to see realistic fighting in a video have many many places to go train that will offer them a quick effective fighting course. Taijiquan is simply not that and I do not see any point in pretending it is. None of my teachers would even discuss that with prospective students. As far as what is known as 'gongfu' goes, we are actually well past it's heyday. Regardless of the changing demands of the internet public, the changes in gongfu culture are not positive, in fact it is a difficult thing to preserve at all now. I don't have any reason to believe that giving up the old views that have well founded reasons supporting them simply to suit a new generation of impatience is valuable.

I respect the old ways and what my teachers taught me. That is not about to change, especially given the practical value I see from it daily. My way is not for everyone, and mostly the gongfu is too hard anyhow.

in a lot of ways, albeit from a slightly different perspective, I pretty much agree with this...

[bawang]

to be fair in america this guy is "good enough". the standard of taijiquan is pretty low, and compared to most hes not that bad. ive seen a lot worse. ones whos form is so bad they can only post snapshot photos.

i mean most taijiquan peoples wont be fighting, they want to learn the forms and push hands, and thsi guys form is pretty good. and he pulls off those air fajings good too.

of course he cant pull off any of those applications in real life, he knows it we know it, thats perfectly fine. as long as your students will buy it and keep paying you, who cares. but if u post ur stuff on the internet of course ur gonna get criticism.
the lesson is dont post things you milk your students with on the internet

[Mo Ling]

to be fair in america this guy is "good enough". the standard of taijiquan is pretty low, and compared to most hes not that bad. ive seen a lot worse. ones whos form is so bad they can only post snapshot photos.

i mean most taijiquan peoples wont be fighting, they want to learn the forms and push hands, and thsi guys form is pretty good. and he pulls off those air fajings good too.

of course he cant pull off any of those applications in real life, he knows it we know it, thats perfectly fine. as long as your students will buy it and keep paying you, who cares. but if u post ur stuff on the internet of course ur gonna get criticism.
the lesson is dont post things you milk your students with on the internet

Seems you are well versed in that story. Those who know me, including my students, know I don't milk anyone for anything. You may be speaking from your own experience, but in the reality outside your idea, like my training for example, I simply do not make enough money to be qualified as 'milking' anything.

There are lots of people taking advantage of hapless students out there, this is true. However taking advantage has to make some sort of profit you know. If it feels good for you to believe this about me, I am not in any great need to change that. However it is false to the point of amusement on the part of anyone who trains with me.

Trying to convince the 'asshammer' is probably above my paygrade too.

[bawang]

i dont understand how u talk yourself a thousand miles into the sky like your some sort of amazing guy. maybe ur students kissed ur ass too much.

this isnt the 1970s anymore. just 10 seconds to youtube you can easily see the standards of "advanced" taijiquan teachers and compare to yourself.

if u dont realize youre milking then you got milked by ur teacher and didnt realize it, and thought it was the proper way to teach. teaching taijiquan isnt about dumping tons of complex confusing concepts to your students its about silent diligent training. white students get bored so chinese teachers usually gave more fancy concepts to them.

when i was starting i did nothing but standing post and silk reeling and qigong for 2 years every day. i still dont post video of myself because i know im not good and i dont let my ego take control. theres lots of video of kung fu guys whose forms and apps look much better than yours getting their ass kicked. which is another reason i dont post videos.
i think ur form looks good but ur "sparring" is sh1t, and thats my opinion.



chairman mao said we should not only accept criticism from others, but actively critisize ourselves. u should take his advice

[Dragonzbane76]

There are lots of people taking advantage of hapless students out there, this is true.

hence we have the "red flag" come out. Everyones a sceptic these days and I think we should be. it's only fair after the amount of a$$ screwing most people recieved from chi dim mak fire blasting hadokens "masters" over the years. it's evolution.

I'm not condeming what you are doing, just pointing out that people in general have stepped away from the "movie" based wushu that brought the windfalls of money in the 70-80's.

In my experience you get what you work for. Those who need to see realistic fighting in a video have many many places to go train that will offer them a quick effective fighting course. Taijiquan is simply not that and I do not see any point in pretending it is.

I see your point here and bow to logic.

respect the old ways and what my teachers taught me. That is not about to change, especially given the practical value I see from it daily. My way is not for everyone, and mostly the gongfu is too hard anyhow.

i respect the origins, and look past the flashy contrived. no one is attacking you on this, it takes a lot to post a vid and have people crit. it. I respect those whom stick to there guns and don't try to tell others that what they are doing is wrong. If it makes you happy and no one is getting screwed in the process then by all means have at it and be merry about what you have.

[Mo Ling]

i dont understand how u talk yourself a thousand miles into the sky like your some sort of amazing guy. maybe ur students kissed ur ass too much.

this isnt the 1970s anymore. just 10 seconds to youtube you can easily see the standards of "advanced" taijiquan teachers and compare to yourself.

if u dont realize youre milking then you got milked by ur teacher and didnt realize it, and thought it was the proper way to teach. teaching taijiquan isnt about dumping tons of complex confusing concepts to your students its about silent diligent training. white students get bored so chinese teachers usually gave more fancy concepts to them.

when i was starting i did nothing but standing post and silk reeling and qigong for 2 years every day. i still dont post video of myself because i know im not good and i dont let my ego take control. theres lots of video of kung fu guys whose forms and apps look much better than yours getting their ass kicked. which is another reason i dont post videos.
i think ur form looks good but ur "sparring" is sh1t, and thats my opinion.



chairman mao said we should not only accept criticism from others, but actively critisize ourselves. u should take his advice

Hey you know, I am actually an adult and I am just not likely to find value in a ****ing match with you online, really that is passe.

I have not talked myself up at all here. I posted some videos and stood behind what I posted and have let people say whatever they like. I don't call myself master or 'sifu' this and that. I have not made any big claims. I am a guy, however who has eaten the bitter and followed the traditional path, lived in China and trained there, traveled there for years etc. It is a long story that I am not really interested in telling here. So, before you make assumptions about people cheating their students without any evidence, or knowing nothing simply because they showed some isolated methods in a video, take a moment to examine your own behavior. That is pretty insulting and without any basis in fact whatsoever.

I expect critique when I post something online, but that does not mean I have to agree with it all. I am also entitled to my opinion. Not agreeing with your critique is not a basis to accuse me of dishonesty and ignorance of which you have no basis in knowledge. Being nice is not overrated.

If you know you are not good and you don't let your ego take control as you said, you might try to reflect that in your conversations here, because you are coming across as if you really think you are good and you ego is very loud.

Myself, I have a good idea of where my own skill is at, but my contributions to this discussion have been pretty civil and humbly accommadating compared to what you've just shown. Does being nice and respectful mean I have no skill? Does being insulting for no reason about someone you do not know make you better?

Clearly I must not know the way of things.

[Scott R. Brown]

Just keep in mind that "bawang" means "garlic"......in Tagalog.

Not everyone likes this type of seasoning!

Others only take it in small doses.

[bawang]

If you know you are not good and you don't let your ego take control as you said, you might try to reflect that in your conversations here, because you are coming across as if you really think you are good and you ego is very loud.

Clearly I must not know the way of things.

my ego isnt loud. if my ego was loud i would film myslef doing tai chi and add weird chinese pop music to it then post it on the internet.

i tried using stuff like u showed in the video in high school and got the ass beating of my life. i practiced one technique for hours, and it still doesnt work. that is why i am being so direct with you. people like you feel absolutely no guilt in your lies because you live the lie. what if your student tries soemthing and gets horribly beaten or killed? have you thought about that?
the stuff u showed can never work. i dont know you, so i am being very honest with you. tahts the whole point of the internet. im not asking u to agree wit me. im just saying my opinion.

u say u endured bitter training in china. but u clearly look out of shape and wobbly. ive been training chen 13 spear with 20 pound iron spear and 40 pound weight vest for 3 hours a day in the summer, my thumb is constantly bleeding and all the blister in my hand exploded. u dont look like someone who trained in china seriously. u look like the token foreigner student

[Mo Ling]

my ego isnt loud. if my ego was loud i would film myslef doing tai chi and add weird chinese pop music to it then post it on the internet.

i tried using stuff like u showed in the video in high school and got the ass beating of my life. i practiced one technique for hours, and it still doesnt work. that is why i am being so direct with you. people like you feel absolutely no guilt in your lies because you live the lie. what if your student tries soemthing and gets horribly beaten or killed? have you thought about that?
the stuff u showed can never work. i dont know you, so i am being very honest with you. tahts the whole point of the internet. im not asking u to agree wit me. im just saying my opinion.

u say u endured bitter training in china. but u clearly look out of shape and wobbly. ive been training chen 13 spear with 20 pound iron spear and 40 pound weight vest for 3 hours a day in the summer, my thumb is constantly bleeding and all the blister in my hand exploded. u dont look like someone who trained in china seriously. u look like the token foreigner student

I hope by posting my out of shape, wobbly token foreign student video on the internet and teaching some students I did not make you feel less important than you really are. I have no intention to take away needed attention from someone who deserves it more than I do. You probably should be teaching and get lots of credit for your hard work. I wish you success in the future, not really excited about arguing with you. You might be very skilled.

[cerebus]

Bawang, it's easy to make judgements based on a video, and it's easy to talk alot of garbage about someone you've never met. If someday you meet some of the people you talk so freely against on the internet, you may end up being surprised. I've met many of the people I've corresponded with over the internet and crossed hands with some of them, I've often been pleasantly surprised. Your mind seems very closed. That's too bad for you...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, Bawang-Fu, it makes this forum worthwhile !!