Maui thai plum

[HumbleWCGuy]

No, it is a psycho-physical process. Your training is both mental and physical to some varying degrees depending on the task/skill.

T. There is no such thing as psycho-physical. There is a branch of psychology called psycho-physics, but it doesn't quite match. The branch of psychology that describes memories and how they are stored is cognitive psychology which spends a lot of time studying the "mind" absent of its physical constructs.

You seem to think that sport and foul tactics are somehow separate and distinct, or that foul tactics will give you some edge against a sport fighter. No. They are/will not. Foul tactics are a PART of sport, and always have been. Foul tactics are just "extensions" of the "normal" sport skills. But, skilled sport athletes -- in contrast to those who haven't trained sport -- know when they can use them. For example, hitting below the belt. Foul tactic. Do you think they are all accidents?

I am not under any illusion that all fouls are accidental, but the fact that a conscious decision must be made to commit one demonstrates my point. A stereotypical sport fighter has to think about committing a foul. Schools that place an emphasis on self-defense ahead of sport still do "sport-style" training but it never occurs to them that they shouldn't foul or even know what a foul is until they are handed a rule list for a competition. That's is the difference.

Who do you think can better pull off that foul tactic, the skilled boxer (sport trained) or some guy who believes should he ever get in a fight with a boxer he'll "level the playing field" (your words) with a below the belt shot?

Again, you have set up an either or scenario. My point has been and is that both styles of training are important. Sport training is fundamental to any good fighter. With proper protective equipment, common sense, or the use of house rules instead of competition rules, all of these foul techniques can be trained against resisting opponents.

[Liddel]

In the context of dealing with the plumb -- which is what this discussion is about -- you are not going to be able to do a groin shot. I explained why. Go train with some competent MT people and you will see that I am telling you the truth.

When you get caught in a good plumb, you are being yanked around continually by your head, and every yank is punctuated by a knee or elbow slamming into you. You won't even be able to reach their groin with your hands and if you lift a leg to kick, you'll be flying through the air. Nor will you have any power to pull his hair/chin since he will put his head next to yours (providing stability and giving him more leverage).

Again if your not familiar with the tech dont assume it wont work. If you dont train it how can you comment as an authority on it rather than the theoretical non fighter you charge everyone else as being.

If a MT fighter does a perfect textbook plumb and has superior timing and ability then im in trouble no matter what i do. If im expecting certain actions from any given fighter of any given style, then i have the ability to avoid and control the situation better.... if ive trained against competent resisting opponents doing said action.

Do you have any experience with CQB or the dirty dozen ?

Ive experienced the plumb from what most would consider competent MT fighters, you however have not experienced milling with European CQB exponents which is where one of the forementioned techs comes from (fused with my Chun)

I suggest you find a school and go train to see. Employ a good plumb and work your stuff, Your eyes will be opened.

Sorry for hijacking the thread OP, im backing away now

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got be honest with you guys, unless there is a sizebale weight and strength advantage, you don't see

When you get caught in a good plumb, you are being yanked around continually by your head, and every yank is punctuated by a knee or elbow slamming into you.

Seriously, you may see the occasional throw, if you wanna call it that, but this here almost gives the impression of tossing someone around like a rag doll.
To be honest, most MT coaches typically advise against trying to "muscle" the plum like that, the last seminar I attend with Chai he himself said not to do that and list a few reason why.
Speaking from personal experince, I have had a few guys try that but it didn't work for them because, well I am pretty strong to begin with but their over commitment made it easier to break the plum and/or unbalance them.
My view is to NOT try to do this unless you have a sizable weight or strength advantage.

[Wayfaring]

To be honest, most MT coaches typically advise against trying to "muscle" the plum like that, the last seminar I attend with Chai he himself said not to do that and list a few reason why.

Well, they still teach you to hang off the neck so your opponent carries your weight, and they still teach to use your weight to get them moving to one side, and when their foot plants is when you knee strike - knee up vertically, then across horizontally for the strike, then to work the other side the same way.

I'm sure people muscle that as opposed to using natural weight and motion. That is missing one of the points of the plum, which is that if you are doing it correctly you are not burning energy but your opponent carrying your weight is burning energy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, they still teach you to hang off the neck so your opponent carries your weight, and they still teach to use your weight to get them moving to one side, and when their foot plants is when you knee strike - knee up vertically, then across horizontally for the strike, then to work the other side the same way.

I'm sure people muscle that as opposed to using natural weight and motion. That is missing one of the points of the plum, which is that if you are doing it correctly you are not burning energy but your opponent carrying your weight is burning energy.

Point taken, but that doesn't sound like "yanked around by your head".
Sort of like describing an overhead punch as a "haymaker from left field" know what I mean?

[Xiao3 Meng4]

T. There is no such thing as psycho-physical. There is a branch of psychology called psycho-physics, but it doesn't quite match. The branch of psychology that describes memories and how they are stored is cognitive psychology which spends a lot of time studying the "mind" absent of its physical constructs.

Take a look at Psycho-Physiology.

[t_niehoff]

Take a look at Psycho-Physiology.

Yes, it's too bad he never learned to google.

He might even see links like

http://www.ati-net.com/articles/kettrick1.php

http://www.bookrags.com/research/mot...rning-lmem-01/

[t_niehoff]

Point taken, but that doesn't sound like "yanked around by your head".
Sort of like describing an overhead punch as a "haymaker from left field" know what I mean?

If you go train at some good MT gyms (as I have been doing), you'll find my phrase "getting yanked around by your head" accurate.

Look at what Maliput is doing with the opponent's head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brYgH...eature=related

Clinch training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GInHuTewwZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXGup...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FQD...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ait_...eature=related

[Xiao3 Meng4]

The head is a joystick. Play your opponent creatively.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you go train at some good MT gyms (as I have been doing), you'll find my phrase "getting yanked around by your head" accurate.

Look at what Maliput is doing with the opponent's head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brYgH...eature=related

Clinch training:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GInHuTewwZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXGup...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-FQD...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ait_...eature=related

Yeah, I think I over reacted to your "yanking" term, LOL !
I just pictured a "ragdoll" like scenario by your description.

[t_niehoff]

Again if your not familiar with the tech dont assume it wont work. If you dont train it how can you comment as an authority on it rather than the theoretical non fighter you charge everyone else as being.

Your argument is nonsense. I know all kinds of things that won't work. Do I have to go train every sort of nonsense to know it won't work? From working the plumb and the MT clinch, I know the sorts of things that can possibly work and those that won't. Just as I know eye-jabs won't get you out of the mount.

If a MT fighter does a perfect textbook plumb and has superior timing and ability then im in trouble no matter what i do. If im expecting certain actions from any given fighter of any given style, then i have the ability to avoid and control the situation better.... if ive trained against competent resisting opponents doing said action.

This is nonsense too. Good fighters get out of good plumbs all the time.

Do you have any experience with CQB or the dirty dozen ?

I've looked at some of their articles. Dungeons & Dragons.

Ive experienced the plumb from what most would consider competent MT fighters, you however have not experienced milling with European CQB exponents which is where one of the forementioned techs comes from (fused with my Chun)

I suggest you find a school and go train to see. Employ a good plumb and work your stuff, Your eyes will be opened.

Sorry for hijacking the thread OP, im backing away now

It's amazing that people fall for that sort of nonsense.

[SAAMAG]

Though most people know the word plum from Joe Rogan and UFC as being the double inside head control grip...

In actuality "Prruum" is a Thai word for "clinch" and is not a specific type of grip. So if you're discussing the muay thai prruum, you're discussing the muay thai clinching game as a whole.

The most correct way to talk about the specific grip in question in this thread, at least in english, is double inside head control, double inside grip, double neck tie (though you're not grabbing the neck), double collar tie, and etc.

In any case...here's some more good footage of "someone's" favorite fighter getting handled in working "pruum"
Pot and Saenchai

More of Saenchai prruum work:
Saenchai and Mr X

And for good measure...Pot showing some tricks
Some clinch tricks

Some lesser known guys, but still very relevant to the thread:
Keatkhamtorn gym pruum

Now relative to the last video...Terence...how does your "wing chun grappling" play a role with something like this? I've found that the wing chun helps a great deal from this range, but would like to get some details from you as well since you've discussed this aspect of wing chun in past threads.

[t_niehoff]

Terence...how does your "wing chun grappling" play a role with something like this? I've found that the wing chun helps a great deal from this range, but would like to get some details from you as well since you've discussed this aspect of wing chun in past threads.

It's not "my wing chun grappling" -- just like it isn't "my chi sao" -- but simply the method of WCK that comes from our ancestors.

WCK's method is to strike your way into "the phone booth", and to join/clinch with your opponent, and from there you off-balance him and/or break his structure/posture by pushing, pulling, cutting angles, wedging, etc., with any contact point that presents itself (arm, body, leg) and based on the energy the opponent feeds you, so that you can secure control positions from which to land finishing strikes. IOWs, to control while striking.

You asked about details. Can you do that -- control the opponent (toss him around like a rag doll) while striking him -- in chi sao? If you can't do that -- WCK with the training wheels on -- no details about how to do it without the training wheels will be much help.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yes, it's too bad he never learned to google.

He might even see links like

http://www.ati-net.com/articles/kettrick1.php

http://www.bookrags.com/research/mot...rning-lmem-01/

I stand corrected.

[HumbleWCGuy]

It's not "my wing chun grappling" -- just like it isn't "my chi sao" -- but simply the method of WCK that comes from our ancestors.

WCK's method is to strike your way into "the phone booth", and to join/clinch with your opponent, and from there you off-balance him and/or break his structure/posture by pushing, pulling, cutting angles, wedging, etc., with any contact point that presents itself (arm, body, leg) and based on the energy the opponent feeds you, so that you can secure control positions from which to land finishing strikes. IOWs, to control while striking.

It looks like my posts are starting to sink in. Eventually, you will come to understand that those techniques that you use to "strike your way into 'the phone booth'" also work to stay at range so that your Wing Chun isn't so one dimensional. Those tools allow Alan and company to "WC kickbox."