Relaxing your body in Wing Chun while maintaining correct structure

[this.ims]

Hi guys,

I have been practising Wing Chun for about half a year now. I'm currently doing double hand chi sao and I'm facing some problems.

Firstly, to be able to feel and be sensitive to your partner's actions and moves, we must relax. However, we must also keep our structure there and not allow it to be moved and collapse by you partner. How do we relax yet maintain the correct structure at the same time?

Also, everybody seems to be mentioning this "forward energy". What exactly is this "forward energy"? It's not pushing forward, yet your energy must be directed foward towards your partner. I find all this so contradicting and puzzling.

Please give me your input.

Thanks!

[imperialtaichi]

When you play soccer:

1. to kick the ball far, you need to be forceful, yet relaxed. If you're tense it won't go anywhere.
2. you don't focus on the ball, you focus on the path (the spin) and the target.

When you swim:

1. you don't splash/fight against the water.
2. you work with and "feel" the water.

Cheers,
John

[shawchemical]

Hi guys,

I have been practising Wing Chun for about half a year now. I'm currently doing double hand chi sao and I'm facing some problems.

Firstly, to be able to feel and be sensitive to your partner's actions and moves, we must relax. However, we must also keep our structure there and not allow it to be moved and collapse by you partner. How do we relax yet maintain the correct structure at the same time?

Also, everybody seems to be mentioning this "forward energy". What exactly is this "forward energy"? It's not pushing forward, yet your energy must be directed foward towards your partner. I find all this so contradicting and puzzling.

Please give me your input.

Thanks!

Yes, it IS pushing forward using coordination of both the arms, and the feet to move the whole body through the man's space. But it is NOT overextension or the arms and reaching forward to the man.

[imperialtaichi]

Couple of old clips of mine:

This one briefly describe how to generate relaxed power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zRDW_7EzMA

This one, a bit of not serious play, resisting hits by maintaining posture and "breathing" into the area under attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiqBzkhXhIw

Cheers,
John

[Graham H]

Hi guys,

I have been practising Wing Chun for about half a year now. I'm currently doing double hand chi sao and I'm facing some problems.

Firstly, to be able to feel and be sensitive to your partner's actions and moves, we must relax. However, we must also keep our structure there and not allow it to be moved and collapse by you partner. How do we relax yet maintain the correct structure at the same time?

Also, everybody seems to be mentioning this "forward energy". What exactly is this "forward energy"? It's not pushing forward, yet your energy must be directed foward towards your partner. I find all this so contradicting and puzzling.

Please give me your input.

Thanks!

When u start double rolling arms (Poon Sau) Structure is created from exchanging force with your training partner. Invariably we are training the whole body for punching so force has to be exchanged in the correct way. When there is no force exchanged in Poon Sau then no structure in the body will be created and the punch will be weak. The exchange of force through Tan Sau and Fook Sau is a must. This is very important in the beginning. Although there is no deliberate tension, relaxed "rolling arms" is pointless. Just going around in circles for no reason.

GH

[this.ims]

Thank you for all your input guys, I really appreciate it.

One thing I have experienced constantly during my chi sao is the way I fail to deal with the partner's strength. Some practitioners like to use a lot of muscular strength in their chi sao and I find my structure collapsing easily under pressure. I think the most important problem that I'm experiencing right now is the failure to relax under pressure.

Even the word "relax" in Wing Chun to me is really puzzling. How do you really relax? Do you think of peaceful thoughts of scenery and nature? Is it the breathing? All these are still jumbled up for me.

While trying to keep my structure from collapsing, I end up using a lot of muscular strength in return to keep in there. For example, during chi sao if I am against someone who places his tan sao high, my fook sao will be high as well and this leaves a gap for him to turn his tan sao into a palm strike into me. By trying to avoid this, I forcefully press down my fook sao to get it into the proper almost horizontal position to close this opening. I have been told that this is wrong and that I'm supposed to push forward and not downwards. This has been puzzling me for quite a while and is just one of my many problems understanding some concepts of Wing Chun.

Please pardon me for my questions because I am just a beginner and I'm still trying my best to understand this very intriguing martial art.

Cheers

[CFT]

While trying to keep my structure from collapsing, I end up using a lot of muscular strength in return to keep in there. For example, during chi sao if I am against someone who places his tan sao high, my fook sao will be high as well and this leaves a gap for him to turn his tan sao into a palm strike into me. By trying to avoid this, I forcefully press down my fook sao to get it into the proper almost horizontal position to close this opening. I have been told that this is wrong and that I'm supposed to push forward and not downwards. This has been puzzling me for quite a while and is just one of my many problems understanding some concepts of Wing Chun.

Regarding your fook sau ... like many have said before ... it's all about your elbow. If you can bring your elbow in and forward your forearm should bring his tan sau down. If however you are pressing down hard with your fook sau and he removes his tan sau, your arm will go flying downwards. If you are driving your fook forward from the elbow, loss of resistance will mean your fook hand will go towards his body.

[Graham H]

Regarding your fook sau ... like many have said before ... it's all about your elbow. If you can bring your elbow in and forward your forearm should bring his tan sau down. If however you are pressing down hard with your fook sau and he removes his tan sau, your arm will go flying downwards. If you are driving your fook forward from the elbow, loss of resistance will mean your fook hand will go towards his body.

??????? Tan Sau should not go down!!!!

Both Tan Sau and Fook Sau are moved in the same way. Tan Sau pushes forward with contact on the outside of the elbow and Fook Sau is moved in and forward with contact on the inside of the elbow. This is purely for training the punch.
In the begininng it is difficult for a student to push in the correct way and there are methods to help a he/she correct this error.

It is not possible to sink Fook Sau in Poon Sau unless you are using the wrist which is incorrect. The push comes from the elbow so when we punch using the fook sau concept the behaviour of the elbow is correct. Then we can punch and defend simultaneously. Fook Sau is not a block neither is it for manipulating an opponents arms. It is for developing the correct punching behaviour. Its the same for Tan Sau.

GH

[k gledhill]

Chi-sao should be a mutual exercise in force exchange to make punches the vt way. Your partners high tan sao is a punch so his/her elbow should be low as well to develop good strike habits while using the elbow/forearm to create deflecting barriers as the fist/palm goes forwards, your fok sao IS A JUM elbow down and in STRIKE punching back with elbow in and forwards .
The jum strike 'wrist' is relaxed as fok sao, until you make a fist into the gap or bad elbow positions of the partners tan sao or openings...

you should feel the force in your buttocks to maintain the hip force forwards, but your arms are cycling strikes, iow tan strike becomes a bong deflection ...jum strike gets deflected by bong .

There is no 'relaxing' its a very intense exercise, if your elbows relax you get shown you need to do more elbow training

the redundancy of the drills to sparring is that you never use both arms equally extended when exchanging striking attacks so you can always deliver the rear hand wu sao, by having one lead attacking hand constantly recycle you can maintain attacks.

The chi-sao simply gives us the place to drill for the point of contact distances and how to get comfortable in such close proximity from entry and not freak out and freeze, cross the centerlines, not lean forwards sideways etc...complicated, but for a simple goal.


if you feel force from your partners arms , try to take your arm away from theirs suddenly and see what happens...does it go sideways before trying to hit forwards, hesitation is a bad habit. Does it chase your arm for contact of the arm another bad habit...if it hits you directly , does it reach you with force ? if you suddenly jump backwards and disengage do they step forwards to regain their balance ?

its a drill to rid yourselves of bad habits and increase pressure until you find another problem. bad wu sao's, elbows go out, stance is useless...

[Graham H]

its a drill to rid yourselves of bad habits and increase pressure until you find another problem. bad wu sao's, elbows go out, stance is useless...

[Tom Kagan]

If a babies had higher brain function while trying to learn to walk and could ask for advice on the internet, humankind might have regressed from their biped ancestry and become quadrapeds once again due to the sheer "duh ..... how do walk?" factor. At six months, you're just a baby. Just have more fun exploring and falling flat on your face within the confines of the safe haven your teacher provides without overthinking everything ... at least, until you become a toddler.

[CFT]

??????? Tan Sau should not go down!!!!

Both Tan Sau and Fook Sau are moved in the same way. Tan Sau pushes forward with contact on the outside of the elbow and Fook Sau is moved in and forward with contact on the inside of the elbow. This is purely for training the punch.
In the begininng it is difficult for a student to push in the correct way and there are methods to help a he/she correct this error.

I never said you should perform the tan sau in a downward fashion!

The original poster said he had a problem with his pratice partner's high tan sau, and that he was trying to force the tan sau down with his fook sau by forcing his own fook sau down. Clearly not a good thing to do.

[punchdrunk]

Sounds like at this stage all he should worry about is holding a good yjkym, keeping proper facing and trying his best to maintain good tan, bong and fook positions while doing luk sao with a sihing. As for relaxation.. its all part of the experience process, with time you will feel for yourself.. but as a guide if you find yourself holding your breath trying to force something thats a sign you can relax and find a better answer, ask your sihing of sifu. Everyone goes through this stage in chi sao, in fact some never get passed it.

[RedJunkRebel]

If a babies had higher brain function while trying to learn to walk and could ask for advice on the internet, humankind might have regressed from their biped ancestry and become quadrapeds once again due to the sheer "duh ..... how do walk?" factor. At six months, you're just a baby. Just have more fun exploring and falling flat on your face within the confines of the safe haven your teacher provides without overthinking everything ... at least, until you become a toddler.

I agree. These things will come with time. Just go have fun and appreciate the journey.