Looking for WSL vs fencer clip

[punchdrunk]

I have an idea... But I've never seen the clip nor had experience fencing. To start with I am not slighting the skills of either WSL or the fencer. However notice how a grappler has a definite advantage in a light or non-contact demo against a boxer.. without hard hits he can ignore strikes take down his opponent and..surprise!! the striker looks totally useless. Against a fencer if he landed the first blow but you ignored it and closed in tight with BJD to many viewers the fencer would look the fool and he might start using his foil in funny ways (swiping it) to try and make distance.
Of course that is pure conjecture and no way reflects what happened, just one possible explanation with no evidence.

[chusauli]

An Olympic fencer would not be swiping his sword around like a fool.

[Knifefighter]

I have an idea... But I've never seen the clip nor had experience fencing. To start with I am not slighting the skills of either WSL or the fencer. However notice how a grappler has a definite advantage in a light or non-contact demo against a boxer.. without hard hits he can ignore strikes take down his opponent and..surprise!! the striker looks totally useless. Against a fencer if he landed the first blow but you ignored it and closed in tight with BJD to many viewers the fencer would look the fool and he might start using his foil in funny ways (swiping it) to try and make distance.
Of course that is pure conjecture and no way reflects what happened, just one possible explanation with no evidence.

LOL... you must have missed all the early UFC's, not to mention the recent fight of Randy Couture vs. James Toney, not to mention all the hundreds of early clips of standup guys getting schooled by grapplers.

[taai gihk yahn]

LOL... how many people who have posted on this thread have any background in fencing? None? Yeah, that's what I thought.

For those of you that believe that story, here's an experiment for you. Head down to your local fencing center and get together with one of the competitive fencers who is opening to trying this with you:

Gear up and see if you can even come close to touching him before he lands several kill shots on you. You will find that you never have a chance.

When I was in High School, I studied saber w a gentleman by the name of Laszlo Pongo (who was a good friend of my father from back in the "old country"):

National Sabre Champion, Hungary (1948): US National Sabre Champion (1961, 1963, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1970): North Atlantic Sabre Champion (1966, 1968): Member, US Team-World Championships (1958): Member, US Team-Warsaw, Poland (1961): Member, US Team-Hungarian Cup, Budapest, Hungary (1946): Member, US Team-World Championships, Paris (1965).

http://www.fencing.net/forums/thread19391.html

anyway, he used to tell a story of how he once was having a conversation with a kendo "master", who insisted that Japanese sword technique was inherently superior to western style; so Pongo agreed to "spar" with him; as Pongo tells it, the kendo guy became very upset and stormed away after he was unable to land a single shot and Pongo was basically "touching" him at will (using an epee, if I recall);

of course I wasn't there, I don't know if it's true, but this guy was the real deal as regards his skill level and if you walk into NY Athletic Club fencing today and asked about him, you'd get nothing but respectful acknowledgement about the man

take-home message is, of course, don't fu(k w Hungarians...

addendum: oh yeh - don't fu(k w/competitive-level fencers either - you have no idea how much a blunt blade can hurt from a foil, and getting slashed with a dull saber is no fun either - don't think that there is no pain involved just because there is safety equipment; going against a skilled epee-man (who is trained to strike the entire body, FYI) w/a pair of BJD would be tantamount to suicide - why do you think that the rapier was the preferred weapon, with or without dagger, for so long, as opposed to twin short swords?

[punchdrunk]

LOL... you must have missed all the early UFC's, not to mention the recent fight of Randy Couture vs. James Toney, not to mention all the hundreds of early clips of standup guys getting schooled by grapplers.

Im confused sounds like your supporting my view that grapplers have an advantage...

[punchdrunk]

chusauli An Olympic fencer would not be swiping his sword around like a fool.

so what does an Olympic fencer do if I just ignore his scored point and rush in past the range of his foil.. sure he can score the point but does he have any training or experience on what to do inside his sword range.(betcha he starts swiping) If I ignore his one point and slash him 10 times.. to most people I would appear the winner.

this is an example of sport specificity training, an Olympic fencer does not train for what to do outside of their sport.

Similar example... in the 80`s most karate or tkd schools only did light or non-contact sparring. If you wanted to be a jerk you could enter there comps and ignore their rules. First time they try a light kick you catch it and run them out of the ring. You lose by dq but look tough to your friends cause you manhandled the guy.

remember that clip of judo guys doing kendo and they were massacring the kendo guys.. same thing again.

[Knifefighter]

chusauli An Olympic fencer would not be swiping his sword around like a fool.

so what does an Olympic fencer do if I just ignore his scored point and rush in past the range of his foil.. .

With sharp blades and no protection the scored point would more than likely have been in the front of the body and out the back.

[Knifefighter]

Im confused sounds like your supporting my view that grapplers have an advantage...

Your view seemed to be that the grapplers only had the advantage with light strikes.

[lkfmdc]

Stumbling into this late (as usual) but does it surprise you (I'm talking to Knifefighter) that people who still cling to "TMA" and don't see evolution in martial arts would not understand evolution in weapons?

The Olympic sport is related to evolution in dueling, where better, quicker, more dangerous, more LETHAL sword fighitng quickly replaced much clumsier and less effective methods.

Of course, back then, in real dules, people DIED so they were more prone to "listen up" and adapt than the typical TMA person who still clings to their "tradition"

[punchdrunk]

no must be a mis-communication, grapplers aren't limited to just being good at light contact. As far as lunging straight through someone with a sword.. well that takes intent, if your just doing light contact to score a point it probably won't happen. Just like you probably won't get knocked out by your opponent in a light contact sparring match even if you cheat. Not saying it can not happen, just saying touch sparring people usually don't know how to knock people out, and I'm guessing most fencers have never run someone through with a sword.
Just guessing really, until the clip is unearthed thats all we are doing.

[Knifefighter]

no must be a mis-communication, grapplers aren't limited to just being good at light contact. As far as lunging straight through someone with a sword.. well that takes intent, if your just doing light contact to score a point it probably won't happen. Just like you probably won't get knocked out by your opponent in a light contact sparring match even if you cheat. Not saying it can not happen, just saying touch sparring people usually don't know how to knock people out, and I'm guessing most fencers have never run someone through with a sword.
Just guessing really, until the clip is unearthed thats all we are doing.

Fencers train with more "real intent" than most MA people who practice forms and light contact, since they are, essentially, training and competing with "full contact".

[lkfmdc]

that's just a few examples of how sword fighting really played out

[Dave McKinnon]

IKFMDC

I agree with you in most respects but in the pictures you posted there is one killing and another being killed.

In the Olympic matches I watched on Youtube, there were near simultaneous kills.
It is one thing to train more efficiently and as close to real as possible ala MMA and maybe the Dog Brothers, but it is quite another thing to go all the way to TKD/ Fencing where it becomes a judgment call on who won the point.

Tell me what you think maybe I am missing something.

[ShaolinDan]

anyone else notice all the traditional kung fu poses there are in those old European sword pics? funny stuff.

[Sihing73]

Dale,

Are you familiar with the Karambit? Tell me would you consider that to be a thrusting weapon or a slashing weapon? Of course, you could point out the Kris which is exclusively a thrusting weapon. The Kris is not really designed to slash and the blade is not strong enough to support a style other than one which thrusts.

As to using a sword; styles vary with some relying more on thrusts and some more on slashing. Consider the three weapons found in fencing, Foil, Epee and Saber. Each one has it's own distinct flavor.

I suppose that the Two Handed Broadsword is primarily a thrusting weapon as well , There are plenty of blade cultures which do not rely on a thrust as the primary method of attack. Of course, a thrust to the right area is very dangerous and in many cases can be deadly.

However, read your history, you will find that in many cases, duelist received several thrusts from foil type weapons and did not die. As a matter of fact, many times a single thrust did not have much affect on the receiver who was still able to respond and in several cases kill his attacker. Consider the size of the blade and tip of the common foil like weapon and you will see that a killing thrust needed to be to a very precise target. Then look at a slashing weapon and you will see that it does not need to be as precise.

Sorry to disagree, but the death of someone from a sword duel often was a result of infection and poor medical skill.

I am not saying that a thrust is not dangerous or will not result in a kill. But, I think that to discount the effectiveness of a slash is foolish.

Kind of like those guys who seem to think that if you don't train at a MMA gym that you are unable to fight.