Advice on Sung

[YouKnowWho]

1. The more relaxed you are, the quicker your reaction time.

I think you are talking about "speed" and not "Sung". The Sung traning is only a "subset" of the speed training.

[bawang]

total relaxation is a good way to get your organs turned into mush from one punch

tension and relaxation both are important in taijiquan concept of ying yang

[tiaji1983]

I think you are talking about "speed" and not "Sung". The Sung traning is only a "subset" of the speed training.

No sir. Im talking about Sung. My teacher does a demo, I seen him do this on a trained boxer. He has the boxer stand in a guard stance, with his hands right by his face, and shows the boxer hes going to touch the side of his head and how. He then relaxes and uses the wet towel technique and would touch his head everytime.

Now he showed me the technique, which is basically relaxing the arm completely and let it fly out like a wet towel, so it goes around the arm. Then he showed me how to counter it. He first had me stand in the boxer's stance and told me to block it. I couldn't even though my hands were right there. Then he told me to "relaxe." I went sung, relaxed but not completely, and when he started moving I automatically reacted and deflected the strike without realizing it because it happened so fast. Sung increases reaction time. Sung and relaxe are 2 different things. There was no speed training involved, just being sung and having a clear mind made the reaction happen.

[tiaji1983]

total relaxation is a good way to get your organs turned into mush from one punch

tension and relaxation both are important in taijiquan concept of ying yang

I agree but thats a different subject. Sung is not total relaxation from my understanding of it. My teacher taught us Iron Wire as well so we know how to take a punch. There is a balance when doing Taijiquan that encompases both sung and the tension in Iron Wire.

[Scott R. Brown]

Let me see if I have this this straight now; the Sung Dynasty was the "Relaxed" Dynasty? They were all just really mellow fellows?

[taai gihk yahn]

This is part you guys are missing. It's like philosophical yellow fever.
There's just nothing foreign about the concept. Claiming that it is something particular to CMA is just starry eyed sinophilia.

where did I say that there was anything "foreign" about the concept? never said that; what I said was that using words to describe the state was tricky - you know, that whole deSaussere signifier / signified thing (although I think that Chunag Tzu may have had him beat by a few years on that, lol); as far as contracting starry-eyed sinophilia, well, i've been vaccinated, so that's not a worry anymore...

A Chinese speaker of English is no more qualified to comment on the language than an American speaker of Chinese. With an actual degree in the language combined with a decade of learning CMA from a Chinese teacher who does not speak any English, I am happy to match credentials on this topic.

good point; well, my current teacher, Sat Hon, is Chinese, but grew up in the US, where he spoke Cantonese at home but attended Hackley School in upstate NY where he obviously spoke / studied in English: so he is basically a bilingual native speaker of both; he also speaks Mandarin fluently; he also formally studied classical Chinese literature at Princeton as an undergraduate and has continued to do so "informally" over the last 30 years; so when he tells me that he prefers to translate sung as "release" in context of how he understands it in relation to taij / qigong practice, I think it's his purview; the other teacher was BP Chan, who did not like "relax" either, and while he was certainly not as formally educated, he did have a pretty fair command of English and was somewhat well-regarded in the "internal" community; that said, I will concede that "buoyant" and "resilient" are certainly NOT standard translations of "sung", however based on my personal experience, I find them useful from a qualitative perspective to help people get the idea, since, IMPO, sung is predicated on having unimpeded "flow" of ground reaction force up the kinetic chain, which is what gives you that "floating" feeling in the cranium when you get it right; of course, one can argue that this is NOT the correct thing to feel, but that's another thread...

I tend to go on about this one because, among other things, it's insulting towards the entire western world of athletics. . . or to the English language. As an actual Sinophile myself, am LOVE the Chinese language. I love all it's metaphor and it's ability to convey subtleties and deep meaning with just a few short characters. I love stumbling onto concepts that do not translate well...."sung" is just not one of them. See, loving the language as much as I do I even went as far as getting my degree in the language. Funny thing is, I love English too. I just love language.

ditto - IMPO, the first paragraph of Lolita is the most brilliant piece of prose ever written (and that was VN's 3rd language - amazing), followed closely by the opening verse of Pale File by same...

Funny thing about English: It too is capable of using words in all sorts of varied and contextually specific ways. Take the word "relaxation" for example. You can not present a single example, not one in the entire Chinese language, not in all of the writing ever done on Kung Fu about "song" or "fang song" that is not perfectly represented in the English use of the word. All you have to do is get out of your little box and take a look at how other professionals use the word. Talk to dance instructors and see if they thing that relaxed = limp. Talk to musicians or singers. Talk to Jujitsu experts like Eddie Bravo (or just watch him on youtube), get out and check out Alexander technique or some other kind of expert body worker....
. . . .and then get back to me about how "relax" just doesn't cover it.

well, when you actually work with clients / students (as a PT I've had some experience with that...), "relax" is in fact a grossly misunderstood concept, and in fact many people DO associate it with "collapse" or "limp" in regards to their postural organization (as for Alexander, AFAIK, they don't actually use the term much - they tend to like to say things like "the head free and away" - lol, sounds a lot like the first taiji principle of "heui ling yuen ding" / "empty the collar, suspend the top" - well, anyway, at least the teacher I knew and worked with didn't); so when trying to communicate something like sung, telling people to "relax" can actual be counterproductive, because either they over-do it, or in fact get very defensive and insecure and go the other way! now, of course, this is nothing to do with the actual translation, but in terms of cultural consciousness, it is not necessarily the most efficacious translation, in terms of getting people to achieve the specific state of postural cohesion desired; of course, as you doubtless know, language can be rathe fluid depending on circumstances, and can be very context dependent at times; so it's sot of a gray zone on that one...

And give your mother tongue a little credit.

I give English plenty of credit; I don't know where you think that I have represented that it is not completely capable to the task of adequately describing Chinese concepts - for example, I am always going on and on about how whereas many people try to couch "qi" in some sort of inscrutable cover, in fact it is more than apprehendable, so to speak, using so-called "western" concepts and English language; it's just that people like to use the sheen of esoterica to make themselves seem hoary and inscrutable...

[omarthefish]

Now we're getting somewhere.

he prefers to translate sung as "release" in context of how he understands it in relation to taij / qigong practice

That's a pretty interesting choice and not surprising as the verb form of "relax" in Chinese is not "song" but rather "fang-song". The "fang" part used independantly, does mean "to release".

"relax" is in fact a grossly misunderstood concept, and in fact many people DO associate it with "collapse" or "limp" in regards to their postural organization

Oh, I can absolutely agree with that but let me let you in on a little secret. . .

The same exact misunderstanding exist in China too. Chinese people have not the tiniest advantage over westerners in understanding relaxation. When Shifu tells his Chinese students to "fang song" you see all the exact same problems and misunderstandings that you just outlined which gets back to why I feel there is absolulte no difference between the English and Chinese terms. Even the misunderstandings are the same. For instance, where a Taiji teacher in America says, "I don't think that relax quite describes it....", Taiji teachers in China say, "I don't think that fang song quite describes it. . . "
I give English plenty of credit; I don't know where you think that I have represented that it is not completely capable to the task of adequately describing Chinese concepts - for example, I am always going on and on about how whereas many people try to couch "qi" in some sort of inscrutable cover, in fact it is more than apprehendable, so to speak, using so-called "western" concepts and English language; it's just that people like to use the sheen of esoterica to make themselves seem hoary and inscrutable...

[omarthefish]

Now we're getting somewhere.

he prefers to translate sung as "release" in context of how he understands it in relation to taij / qigong practice

That's a pretty interesting choice and not surprising as the verb form of "relax" in Chinese is not "song" but rather "fang-song". The "fang" part used independantly, does mean "to release".

"relax" is in fact a grossly misunderstood concept, and in fact many people DO associate it with "collapse" or "limp" in regards to their postural organization

Oh, I can absolutely agree with that but let me let you in on a little secret. . .

The same exact misunderstanding exist in China too. Chinese people have not the tiniest advantage over westerners in understanding relaxation. When Shifu tells his Chinese students to "fang song" you see all the exact same problems and misunderstandings that you just outlined which gets back to why I feel there is absolulte no difference between the English and Chinese terms. Even the misunderstandings are the same. For instance, where a Taiji teacher in America says, "I don't think that relax quite describes it....", Taiji teachers in China say, "I don't think that fang song quite describes it. . . "

I give English plenty of credit; I don't know where you think that I have represented that it is not completely capable to the task of adequately describing Chinese concepts - for example, I am always going on and on about how whereas many people try to couch "qi" in some sort of inscrutable cover, in fact it is more than apprehendable, so to speak, using so-called "western" concepts and English language; it's just that people like to use the sheen of esoterica to make themselves seem hoary and inscrutable...

Back off man. Get back over there on your own side of the argument. You're not allowed to change sides mid stream like that....

On a parting note, I actually do agree that using a foreign word can have its advantages if only to allow the student to approach the concept relatively free of their preconceptions. And on a random aside...lol...I just read Lolita a couple months back. Didn't finish it for some reason but it was pretty enjoyable and the opening paragraph was a lot of fun.

[omarthefish]

Let me see if I have this this straight now; the Sung Dynasty was the "Relaxed" Dynasty? They were all just really mellow fellows?

Well their calligraphy is pretty **** relaxed looking. . .

[YouKnowWho]

relaxing the arm completely and let it fly out like a wet towel,

Now you are talking about the combat usage of Sung. This is a complete different subject. Not only you have to have Sung on your shoulder joint, you will also need Sung on your elbow and wrist joint. Besides Sung on all 3 joints, you will need to let your Qi to be able to flow smoothly through all 3 joints and then reach to your finger tips. That kind of Qi flow training is beyound the Sung training that we started out on this discussion. I will call this "maximum speed' training instead.

Here is a good training for this:

Both you and your opponent have right side forward, try to use your front right hand to hit his back left shoulder before he can block it with his leading right arm. Even if you have the advantage to initial your strike, since you have to pass your opponent's leading arm and then reach to his back arm before your opponent can intersect your strike with his leading arm, your "speed" will be critical.

By using concrete training method, it will be much easier to discuss the concept of Sung.

[taai gihk yahn]

Now we're getting somewhere.

apparently so;

That's a pretty interesting choice and not surprising as the verb form of "relax" in Chinese is not "song" but rather "fang-song". The "fang" part used independantly, does mean "to release".

interesting; I'll ask him about it next time I se him; interestingy, his background involves boxing (under Floyd Patterson), Laban, Feldenkreis and modern dance (he has an MA in choreography), among others so he actually has worked w the concept of relax/release in a number of different contexts, so this has certainly flavored his sense of it; he is an interesting cat - about as evenly based in both cultures w a deep understanding of classics on both ends; his latest project is a film call "Taiji on 23rd Street" which is being premiered at the Rubin Museum in november (I;m not sure if it was scored by Phillip Glass like his last indy film was...)

Oh, I can absolutely agree with that but let me let you in on a little secret. . .
The same exact misunderstanding exist in China too. Chinese people have not the tiniest advantage over westerners in understanding relaxation. When Shifu tells his Chinese students to "fang song" you see all the exact same problems and misunderstandings that you just outlined which gets back to why I feel there is absolulte no difference between the English and Chinese terms. Even the misunderstandings are the same. For instance, where a Taiji teacher in America says, "I don't think that relax quite describes it....", Taiji teachers in China say, "I don't think that fang song quite describes it. . . "

now THAT'S interesting - the idea that the term doesn't quite get to the heart of the matter in both languages - so here's my question - did the term itself have a different connotation at one point? or, would there by any chance be a ****phone character that has a closer meaning? very interesting...

Back off man. Get back over there on your own side of the argument. You're not allowed to change sides mid stream like that....

lol; yeah, how did that happen? I was all excited about the prospect of a protracted flame war...

On a parting note, I actually do agree that using a foreign word can have its advantages if only to allow the student to approach the concept relatively free of their preconceptions. And on a random aside...lol...I just read Lolita a couple months back. Didn't finish it for some reason but it was pretty enjoyable and the opening paragraph was a lot of fun.

"the tip of the tongue taking a trip down the palate to tap, at three, Lo. Li. Ta." - sheer brilliance; ok, you have GOT to read Pale Fire - it will blow your mind the way the text constantly self-references in a way that makes you go wow...just wow...

[tiaji1983]

Now you are talking about the combat usage of Sung. This is a complete different subject. Not only you have to have Sung on your shoulder joint, you will also need Sung on your elbow and wrist joint. Besides Sung on all 3 joints, you will need to let your Qi to be able to flow smoothly through all 3 joints and then reach to your finger tips. That kind of Qi flow training is beyound the Sung training that we started out on this discussion. I will call this "maximum speed' training instead.

Here is a good training for this:

Both you and your opponent have right side forward, try to use your front right hand to hit his back left shoulder before he can block it with his leading right arm. Even if you have the advantage to initial your strike, since you have to pass your opponent's leading arm and then reach to his back arm before your opponent can intersect your strike with his leading arm, your "speed" will be critical.

By using concrete training method, it will be much easier to discuss the concept of Sung.

well I was using the wet towel technique to demonstrate the use of "relaxed" as I define it, and I was using the sung deflect as an example of sung=fast reactions. I think you missed my point completely.

[omarthefish]

- the idea that the term doesn't quite get to the heart of the matter in both languages - so here's my question - did the term itself have a different connotation at one point? or, would there by any chance be a ****phone character that has a closer meaning? very interesting...

Post a censor free version of ****phone? I'm trying to guess it but I can't figure it out.

I doubt it once had a different communication as so many of the Taiji terms were developed specifically for Taiji. Peng is a classic example. You can't even type it with Chinese typing software. You need to type "bing"掤 and keep scrolling down to the really archaic and rarely used characters before you find it. Fortunately, Chinese typing software learns your habits so the next time you need it it's towards the top of the list.

As to "fang" meaning "release".

放松（放鬆）

Song 松：
A typical dictionary definition tends to mention only "loose", not relaxed:
http://dict.baidu.com/s?wd=%CB%C9&tn=dict

Fang 放
If you scroll down a bit you can see the translations as "free; release"

It's only the two of them together that mean relax:
http://dict.baidu.com/s?wd=%B7%C5%CB%C9&tn=dict

YouKnowWho has mentioned how important looseness may be compared to relaxation and my own teacher actually does stress looseness far more than relaxation. Relaxation is the method. Looseness is the goal but again, loose, not limp. Getting back to the bodywork ideas we are talking about striving for free and easy motion. We don't talk about peng much and I think the reason is because obsessing about peng (as many do) gets in the way of loose, open joints. In my opinion, Peter Ralston demos the idea really well in this long, boring clip with horrible presentation because of all the pauses for his translators. I thought it was worth the wait though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjrKx...eature=related

You have to wait for the end when he finally demos stuff that does not rely on peng.

[Shaolin Shi]

Post a censor free version of ****phone? I'm trying to guess it but I can't figure it out.

How about homophone?

[bawang]

so many years in china and youre still trying to translate the word relax. lol

what is relax mean? whats re? whats lax? what does the x signify? this word is so profound and spiritual, man.