The basic WCK punch

[martyg]

You might try too, your arrogance in replies is becoming regular...

LOL, I might try what? Who am I promoting? You were promoting PB, and it was coming off like a cult. Plain and simple. Please show me where I've ever deferred to Robert in my recent posts, name dropped him, acted as a travel agent telling people they have to go see him if they're serious, told people "you simply don't understand whats being developed", including in my previous replies to your "one proper way" garbage? I'm the guy who started the Friendship seminars with Rene exactly to combat that kind of mentality, and actively promotes understanding the way different people and linneages do things differently. Robert's my sifu, not my borg king. I could care less if people go to see him, or do things the way he does things, or even how I do things. If they want to know, they'll come and see him, me, or any of my brothers - we're all perfectly capable. What an appalingly weak and arrogant attempt at a comeback on your part. Or are you confusing my recent joking with Jim with one of your standard commentary? Ironically, the only arrogance has been dripping from your posts and several other people's here. You and them go play that game, you're all wonderful at it. Leave the sane conversations to the rest of us.

[martyg]

A cult's a cult. 'Nuff said.

Is Ad Hominem abuse and insulting critics a part of your cult training too, or does that come from your own personality disorder?

Careful, he may go all Tom Cruise on you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=374are79zis

Hahaha!

[k gledhill]

LOL, I might try what? Who am I promoting? You were promoting PB, and it was coming off like a cult. Plain and simple. Please show me where I've ever deferred to Robert in my recent posts, name dropped him, acted as a travel agent telling people they have to go see him if they're serious, told people "you simply don't understand whats being developed", including in my previous replies to your "one proper way" garbage? I'm the guy who started the Friendship seminars with Rene exactly to combat that kind of mentality, and actively promotes understanding the way different people and linneages do things differently. Robert's my sifu, not my borg king. I could care less if people go to see him, or do things the way he does things, or even how I do things. If they want to know, they'll come and see him, me, or any of my brothers - we're all perfectly capable. What an appalingly weak and arrogant attempt at a comeback on your part. Or are you confusing my recent joking with Jim with one of your standard commentary? Ironically, the only arrogance has been dripping from your posts and several other people's here. You and them go play that game, you're all wonderful at it. Leave the sane conversations to the rest of us.

Whatever, I really could care less on your input....

[t_niehoff]

Whatever, I really could care less on your input....

You just don't want to accept that what Bayer is doing is nothing special or unique, it is ONE part of WCK, and a rather small part. He has just, for his own personal reasons, made that the end-all-be-all of his teaching.

And, as I have explained, Bayer for all his focus on punching, has a really poor punch. He doesn't even grasp the main objective of the WCK punch: to destroy the opponent's structure. He trains his punch to be weak, and it is weak (that's why he keeps punching, because the first one doesn't destroy anything!).

[shawchemical]

You just don't want to accept that what Bayer is doing is nothing special or unique, it is ONE part of WCK, and a rather small part. He has just, for his own personal reasons, made that the end-all-be-all of his teaching.

And, as I have explained, Bayer for all his focus on punching, has a really poor punch. He doesn't even grasp the main objective of the WCK punch: to destroy the opponent's structure. He trains his punch to be weak, and it is weak (that's why he keeps punching, because the first one doesn't destroy anything!).

The purpose of the punch is NOT to destroy the man's structure. It is to knock him out, or injure him so that he may not continue.

YOu seem to believe this cra/p about attached fighting bullsh.it and can not grasp the fundamentals of any fighting.

Hit the man until he falls down. If he gets up, rinse and repeat.

The punch is NOT about destroying structure, that much is circumstantial and secondary to the true purpose or the punch, hit the man .

[LSWCTN1]

Jeez, early 80's it sounds like...!

I'm not sure if I'm born yet

[LoneTiger108]

Problem is what you have written: "Without getting injured." What do you consider 'getting injured' to be? Because if bruises, bust up lips, bleeding noses and seeing stars consists of 'getting injured,' martial arts is the wrong venture.

Hell, even the crappy (TIC) 'sport-based' martial arts like BJJ that have taken teh deadly strikes taken out have injuries such as sprains and strains all the time.

Knitting (*maybe) might be the only thing that has a low injury rate.

I was trained to NOT get injured as I believe that any injury that hinders training, which could be mainly sprains and strains to be fair, is an injury you should have avoided.

If you believe that injuries should be an integral part of your training, I'd say you should stick to BJJ as WCK is designed to build a persons structure without injury. This is/was why simple exercises like chisau and forms were introduced in the first place. Therapy the body first. Prepare it properly before launching into this 'sporting' method you talk of (which WCK defi nitely is not!)

And lastly, about your "beginner, maybe female, who has very soft muscles, tendons and bones." None of those attributes have anything to do with fighting and/or self-defense.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean here, as you go on to describe what I just have (building from the base etc) What I'm saying is that a beginner comes as a blank canvas and the harder training that is required at a later stage in training actually depends on the condition of your skin, tendons and bones. Note, I don't mention MUSCLE!

[LoneTiger108]

Whether you agree or disagree is immaterial -- it is just a fact: we only get better at doing X by practicing doing X.

I disagree in part T, as I've already said. Yes punching eachother to break structure is great, but there is preparation to complete beforehand or all you will be dealing with are bruised arms, knuckles, egos and bloody noses.

None of that "develops" those things you say it does. That's all nonsense. When you do the knife form, you are not doing the movement, using the mechanics, etc. of what you do with empty hands -- nor would it make any sense to.

Seriously? You know my take on your opinion here dude. You talk from lack of weaponry experience imho. Perhaps taught by someone who wants you to separate the ideals, for fear of you realizing they do not know what they're talking about when they put a knife in their hand

Then you were taught poorly.

And of course, you were taught well?

If someone doesn't want to train that way, then don't. But you will forever suck because you won't be doing what you need to do to develop skill. We're learning a martial art for goodness sake, it is a CONTACT SPORT, like rugby.

Now you want to pigeon hole WCK again as a Contact Sport LIKE RUGBY??!!

Sorry man, WCK is an ART. An Art in continual development. If only jocks like you understood that, it would make the world a more harmonious place

[t_niehoff]

The purpose of the punch is NOT to destroy the man's structure. It is to knock him out, or injure him so that he may not continue.

No, that is what boxers and kickboxers are trying to do. All you have to do is look at the WCK punch and see that the mechanics doesn't support that type of power. Take the punch from the forms (bring fist into chest, thrust out along the centerline, etc.) -- do you really think that will KO anyone?

And if you look at the training boxers and kickboxers do, it focuses on developing KO type power (not structure breaking power).

What is always ironic is that the WCK guys who talk about KOing and injuring their opponent via punching can never do it!

YOu seem to believe this cra/p about attached fighting bullsh.it and can not grasp the fundamentals of any fighting.

I believe it because that is the approach/method of WCK. I am sorry that you never learned it.

Hit the man until he falls down. If he gets up, rinse and repeat.

Oh, that's great . . . and do you think he will just let you hit him at will? How do you set up your strikes, how do you deal with what he is trying to do (hit you, control you, etc.)?

WCK provides an organized approach to all of that, with your control being your defense, your control setting up your strikes, etc. WCK "comes with" a battle plan.

The punch is NOT about destroying structure, that much is circumstantial and secondary to the true purpose or the punch, hit the man .

If you hit someone and don't break their structure, they can hit you back -- with a broken structure, they not only don't have an offense, but don't have a defense.

Charging in with punches, trying to just "hit the guy" is easy to deal with. That is caveman WCK, a low level expression of the art. You don't need chi sao -- our signature drill -- to practice doing that.

[t_niehoff]

I disagree in part T, as I've already said. Yes punching eachother to break structure is great, but there is preparation to complete beforehand or all you will be dealing with are bruised arms, knuckles, egos and bloody noses.

WTF are you talking about?

Seriously? You know my take on your opinion here dude. You talk from lack of weaponry experience imho. Perhaps taught by someone who wants you to separate the ideals, for fear of you realizing they do not know what they're talking about when they put a knife in their hand

That's all bullsh1t. Weapons and empty-hand are two different animals. You can be great at weapons and have no empty hand skill, and you can be great at empty hand and have no weapon skill. Skill in one doesn't in any way transfer to the other. This is another myth.

And of course, you were taught well?

No, I was taught like every other WCK guy -- poorly. Practicing doing X to develop Y is by definition poor training, although it is standard for TCMAs.

Now you want to pigeon hole WCK again as a Contact Sport LIKE RUGBY??!!

Sorry man, WCK is an ART. An Art in continual development. If only jocks like you understood that, it would make the world a more harmonious place

My point is that WCK is fighting, and fighting is a contact activity, like rugby. It's not some intellectual, academic, conceptually-based practice. It is fighting. Like boxing, like wrestling, etc. It's not pigeon-holing it, it is merely seeing it for what it is. The forms, the drills (chi sao, etc.), the dummy, the weapons, NONE of that is WCK. That is merely the curriculum of WCK. WCK is the activity, it is fighting using WCK tools. It is playing the game.

[LoneTiger108]

WTF are you talking about?

I was repeating myself T. Got no problem with using fistwork to break structure, but the key is how to train/drill said fistwork FIRST. And FWIW if you're only ever training breaking structure by breaking structure with EVERY fist you throw and (lord forbid!) you aint making any contact or being defended, I personally think you are wasting a lot of energy. A no no from where I'm coming from...

That's all bullsh1t. Weapons and empty-hand are two different animals. You can be great at weapons and have no empty hand skill, and you can be great at empty hand and have no weapon skill. Skill in one doesn't in any way transfer to the other. This is another myth.

No. It's not a myth. Just something that needs proper insight and tuition. I don't think you would agree with me if we just spent time physically in the same room with eachother for a very short while! I don't think I could take a full day of this type of mind set! Your opinion is not shared by everybody here T, and I used to think the way you do too Then I met a Sifu that knew his weaponry and understood it's place in Martial Arts training.

No, I was taught like every other WCK guy -- poorly. Practicing doing X to develop Y is by definition poor training, although it is standard for TCMAs.

As I've said, it's the reasoning behind some of the traditional mess that needs to be learnt first hand with a skilled Sifu. You admit that this has not happened, or did not happen until you met Robert Chu. I don't think Robert could even talk with my Sifu as he would be 'too proud' to answer some simple questions.

My point is that WCK is fighting, and fighting is a contact activity, like rugby. It's not some intellectual, academic, conceptually-based practice. It is fighting. Like boxing, like wrestling, etc. It's not pigeon-holing it, it is merely seeing it for what it is. The forms, the drills (chi sao, etc.), the dummy, the weapons, NONE of that is WCK. That is merely the curriculum of WCK. WCK is the activity, it is fighting using WCK tools. It is playing the game.

This quote is pure gold dust

For someone that promotes WCK as a 'curricullum' you sure did just trample all over your own a$$! The curricullum IS everything you mention. It's what binds us all together.

I do feel that this is only coming from you're interpretation of the kuit you hold. That's the kuit that's influencing your WCK to be viewed as an activity, or game. That Hints & Tips stuff?!

Part timers in HK 'play' kung fu T. Us Londoners like to actually DO kung fu seriously! WCK is definitely NOT a game imho. More evidence that you may have neither the curricullum, method or tools to truly understand what WCK is imho.

[t_niehoff]

I was repeating myself T. Got no problem with using fistwork to break structure, but the key is how to train/drill said fistwork FIRST. And FWIW if you're only ever training breaking structure by breaking structure with EVERY fist you throw and (lord forbid!) you aint making any contact or being defended, I personally think you are wasting a lot of energy. A no no from where I'm coming from...

What are you talking about? How do you train to break an opponent's structure with your punch? By doing it. There is no other way. You are not going to develop that skill by not practicing the skill.

The WCK punch doesn't miss. Go back to the thread about the WCK operating sysytem.

No. It's not a myth. Just something that needs proper insight and tuition. I don't think you would agree with me if we just spent time physically in the same room with eachother for a very short while! I don't think I could take a full day of this type of mind set! Your opinion is not shared by everybody here T, and I used to think the way you do too Then I met a Sifu that knew his weaponry and understood it's place in Martial Arts training.

Sorry, but it is bunk. I don't care if my opinion is shared by everybody here. People can convince themselves of all sorts of nonsense.

As I've said, it's the reasoning behind some of the traditional mess that needs to be learnt first hand with a skilled Sifu. You admit that this has not happened, or did not happen until you met Robert Chu. I don't think Robert could even talk with my Sifu as he would be 'too proud' to answer some simple questions.

This has nothing to do with anyone's sifu. Everyone talks about their "skilled sifu" -- skilled sifu that can't hold their own against white-belt level MMA fighters. But they KNOW.

This quote is pure gold dust

For someone that promotes WCK as a 'curricullum' you sure did just trample all over your own a$$! The curricullum IS everything you mention. It's what binds us all together.

The curriculum provides us the method and the tools, it doesn't -- and can't -- teach you how to use it. You only learn to use it by and through using it: you learn to box by boxing. Boxing isn't the exercises, the tools, it isn't the drills, etc. It is fighting (using boxing's method and tools).

I do feel that this is only coming from you're interpretation of the kuit you hold. That's the kuit that's influencing your WCK to be viewed as an activity, or game. That Hints & Tips stuff?!

Part timers in HK 'play' kung fu T. Us Londoners like to actually DO kung fu seriously! WCK is definitely NOT a game imho. More evidence that you may have neither the curricullum, method or tools to truly understand what WCK is imho.

The "game" refers to the activity itself (you are actually doing the activity when you play the game). Fighting with WCK (using the method and tools of WCK) is playing the game. You only get better playing the game by playing the game. It has nothing to do with "understanding" -- only theoretical nonfighters talk that way. If you are DOING WCK, you are fighting. DOING is not about understanding or knowledge or concepts or principles -- it is about PERFORMANCE.

[LoneTiger108]

What are you talking about? How do you train to break an opponent's structure with your punch? By doing it. There is no other way. You are not going to develop that skill by not practicing the skill.

yaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnn

Obviusly a waste of my breath.

The WCK punch doesn't miss.

IDEALLY, yes! But I think you're living in Fantasy Fu land if you think you can land every strike against a skilled WCK practitioner.

Everyone talks about their "skilled sifu" -- skilled sifu that can't hold their own against white-belt level MMA fighters. But they KNOW.

Okay. Put an average BJJ player in fron of me with a pair of knives and we will see who ****es themselves first! Your argument is pointless and does nothing but promote MMA attitude. Train everything. Learn NOTHING!

If you are DOING WCK, you are fighting. DOING is not about understanding or knowledge or concepts or principles -- it is about PERFORMANCE.

No, you don't have to fight to do WCK. I know that's hard for you to understand, but there it is. Can I ask who taught you that? Because they were wrong.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

IDEALLY, yes! But I think you're living in Fantasy Fu land if you think you can land every strike against a skilled WCK practitioner.

Moy Yat Chops

1. When you should hit-hit
2. When you shouldn't hit-don't
3. Don't when you can't and don't when you mustn't.

[LoneTiger108]

Moy Yat Chops

Interesting. But your point? It's a great piece of advice, but what I'm saying is not everyone will have that ability or intent, especially beginners.

It's funny that within all of Moy Yats chops it also states " beginners must not use strength" which supports another point I was trying to say to T. All this force against force training, and dangerous intent is not productive and can actually be very detrimental to the beginner.

Ideals for WCK are fine. But we are all human, so this punch that you think should hit doesn't. Now you're over-comitted and eaten by a little snake