Constructing a purely TCMA MMA? Can it be done?

[sanjuro_ronin]

No TCMA deals with ground work to the extend of Judo, much less BJJ or submission grappling.
It's just not there to the degree it is in those sports.

[Lucas]

oh i forgot im stupid satoshi has already fought i believe.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/show...=satoshi+ishii

[David Jamieson]

mma as a professional competitive sport has zero single art practitioners.

there is no single art that covers all the ranges anywhere.

jj, bjj etc do not cover stand up

karate, cma, boxing, MT do not cover ground

clinch is covered differently and takes on a different tack in mma than in boxing or even in kickboxing, it has to take into consideration that possibility that the next thing could be a kick and knee or a takedown or a throw.

competitive mma will eventually develop into a style where by all those ranges will be trained as a whole package instead of guys going from one club to another to get rounded out for it.

integrated mma training methodology is the next step and i think cma has a lot to offer it.

[pateticorecords]

hmmm... Bruce lee;-)

Here are some others:
Jason Delucia, Felix Mitchell, Cung Le, Cummo, Tom Valente, Keith Maza


I like this video...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WrYh...&search=UFC%20


old kung fu book that shows groundwork and takedowns:
http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikid...c3dbef34f3bea9

[Lucas]

I know cung le is not full cma. his cma training is in viet kungfu from his younger years, but he is most certainly mma from various arts.

[goju]

cung also knows tkd as well

[MasterKiller]

hmmm... Bruce lee;-)

The most notable CMA guy to emphasize the need to crosstrain?

Here are some others:
Jason Delucia, Felix Mitchell, Cung Le, Cummo, Tom Valente, Keith Maza

You do realize Delucia got beaten silly by Royce Gracie and immediately started crosstraining, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI

And Cung Le and Luke Cummo certainly crosstrain.

[goju]

lucia cross trains as well doesnt he? i believe he knows aikido too and of course can conjure ghosts to attack you through a voodp ritual like he did with bas rutten lol

[Hardwork108]

Yet, the Chinese styles you have experience in have no ground fighting.

First you guys make assumptions about thousands of TCMA, and their thousand year old histories, while not having completed a genuine curriculum of even one of those styles. Now, you are assuming what I have experience in does have or does not have! LOL.

Let me tell you this, even if what you say were the case, then I would not be pompous enough to say, "I haven't seen it, therefore it does not exist".....

As the case is, the Mainland Chinese Wing Chun lineage that I studied, introduced the ground fighting in the latter stages of Chun Kiu, when the student had already gained potent skill in stand up striking and Chin-na.

There is a Tiger style of kung fu that has ground fighting. There is at least on lineage of Northern Praying Mantis, that teaches ground fighting as a part of their traditional curriculum. I believe that their kwoon is in Singapoore, if memory serves me correctly.

"Ground fighting" is not as simple as armbarring someone, or kicking a standing opponent from the ground, or even locking someone and taking them down.

I did not say that it was.

The main point of ground fighting is holding positions and training the transitions into those positions so that you can control your opponent and/or prevent him from controlling you.

Hey, couldn't the more or less same thing be said about stand up fighting?

If it exists out there in the Chinese ether somewhere, but it such a close-guarded secret that no one knows about it except in-door disciples, it might as well not even exist because it does nothing to further the development of Chinese arts as a whole.

Again, no one said anything about "indoor disciples". The fact is that over 95% of TCMA schools teach utter cr@p, and people like you base your comments on experiences gained in such schools. I am merely saying that you lot are wrong!

I mean, if it's so obvious to someone like you, show me 3 examples of pure Chinese ground fighting.

I am spending precious time on posting to you guys, because I agree that it is not so obvious, even if logically, it would not be too difficult to come to the conclusion that fightings systems developed in a country with thousands of years of history, and violence, where wrestling arts had existed before and parallel with kung fu, then some of these arts would have ground fighting,while others would address the ground fighting scenario in their own manner.

Anyway, here are a few to give you an indication:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20SLgNb9Ds

Shaolin Grappling?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJR5J...eature=related

This one claims to be tai chi, but I am not very familiar with tai chi, so you decide for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwYm...eature=related


Finally, even though I have given you some Youtube examples, Youtube is not beginning and the end of kung fu. There are many kung fu methodologies that are not even referred to in books and other written literature, even if you are lucky enough to read ones written by actual masters. That is the way things are in the TCMA world, and IMHO, quite rightly so.

The previous paragraph was for your information, but when it comes to TCMA's take on ground fighting, then there is nothing secret about it. The problem is that there a very extremely few schools that teach a given kung fu style the way it was designed to be taught and covering all of its levels. Once you accept this fact then you will be "enlightened".....

[Hardwork108]

It is very possible... especially if you integrate into your training some Shuai Jiao, San Shao, Chi Na, Chi Na Fa; in addition to cross training in Hung Ga, Choy Lay Fut, Wing Chun, Shaolin, Bak Mei, Eagle Claw, White Crane, TigerCrane to improve stricking, closing the gap, and power generation

All of the TCMA styles that you have quoted there will teach you potent Chi-na, if you train them in a genuine kwoon and under the guidance of an authentic kung fu sifu.

[Hardwork108]

i think a big question is, if its possible to do at a truly competative level, then out of all the hundreds of thousands of cma practitioners there are no soley cma pro fighters in the ranks? so are cma guys just weak or has no one actually done this? and if thats the case, how do you know it would work?

i want to see a pro fight from a fighter who says 'i am 100% cma'

i dont think anyone can show me that vid. im not saying it can or cannot be done, im saying, where is evidence that it HAS been done. we are talking mma, a sport, which requires competing to be a MMA fighter.

Aren't the Sand Da people in China, from CMA backgrounds?

[David Jamieson]

All of the TCMA styles that you have quoted there will teach you potent Chi-na, if you train them in a genuine kwoon and under the guidance of an authentic kung fu sifu.

kung fu schools, "thousands" as they may be do not address grappling, wrestling, ground positions etc.

It doesn't matter if some obscure dude in a littel village in shandung uses wrestling in his village tiger style. That is completely irelevant to the main question of groundwork/grappling/wrestling and how to deal with someone while in a guard, in a mount, with or under someone else side control etc etc.

those "thousands" of cma styles do not address that in a big way and it is necessary.

shuai chiao is the closest you come to any sort of standing grapples that lead to throws and there is no groundwork for the most part.

chin na address grabs, seizes and holds but doesn't address someone in the mount smashing their elbows down on your face.

to be fair, Muay Thai doesn't address ground work and neither does Karate in any form, boxing, kickboxing, tae kwon do, bagua, taichi, xingyi, etc. Kung Fu isn't the only one that doesn't deal with wrestling, grappling it has to be added in or onto a style in order to address it.

The very fact that a person would rail against this simple truth is indicative that perhaps they don't know what they are talking about and maybe should give consideration to those who do recognize the leaks.

Yes, Kung Fu is a lot of things, but it is not everything and doesn't adequately address all forms of combat in and of itself no matter how many iterations there are of it.

[Hardwork108]

there is no single art that covers all the ranges anywhere.

I disagree.

There many arts that cover ALL of the ranges, the question would be, how deeply do they cover those ranges, or what their emphasized range is!

jj,

Wrong. Japanese JJ has striking and stand up fighting.

bjj etc do not cover stand up

I know, that a lot of time they start standing up. Perhaps, one of this forum's thousands of BJJ practitioners can enlighten us more on the truth of your statement?

karate, cma,

Wrong again.

Traditional Kyokushikai used to have some ground work. Also, there is at least on lineage of Okinawan Goju Ryu, that trains ground fighting.

boxing, MT do not cover ground

You are probably right about boxing, and sport MT does not have ground fighting, but the traditional one, I am not too sure about. Perhaps, one of this forums's thousands of MT practioners can enlighten us?

competitive mma will eventually develop into a style where by all those ranges will be trained as a whole package instead of guys going from one club to another to get rounded out for it.

I was under the impression that some clubs already did that, but I could be wrong...

[mooyingmantis]

You can't because TCMA has no groundfighting.

MMA = multiple ranges, and without a competent ground game, you do not have "MMA."

And you base your opinion on?
Monkey Boxing has groundwork. So that is at least one TCMA that has it.

[David Jamieson]

I disagree.

There many arts that cover ALL of the ranges, the question would be, how deeply do they cover those ranges, or what their emphasized range is!

what's your experience been? Mine has been somewhat robust and "all" ranges are not addressed, certainly not any wrestling at all. throws? sure, grabs and takedowns? sure. Ground work? ZERO.

Wrong. Japanese JJ has striking and stand up fighting.

JJ is not exactly what I would call pure, although some of it is and does have stand up, JJ in GJJ or in context to sportive doesn't employ the old ways and leans more towards trhe gracie and brazilian models fo what jj is. TO find genuine traditional japanese ju jitsu is no easy task. Many pretenders, just like tcma. lol

I know, that a lot of time they start standing up. Perhaps, one of this forum's thousands of BJJ practitioners can enlighten us more on the truth of your statement?

You will find that the system has been modified from Judo. the stand up part is to get position to launch the takedown, after that, it's about control and submission.

Wrong again.

Traditional Kyokushikai used to have some ground work. Also, there is at least on lineage of Okinawan Goju Ryu, that trains ground fighting.

Do you study Okinawan Karate? I did for years, and I am not wrong, you are uninformed if you think there is wrestling and grappling in these arts. there is not, not any.

Kyokushin kai was mas oyamas style. He was formerly shotokan and while mas may have dabbled in taking down bulls, Kyokushin doesn't deal with wrestling or grappling.

You are probably right about boxing, and sport MT does not have ground fighting, but the traditional one, I am not too sure about. Perhaps, one of this forums's thousands of MT practioners can enlighten us?

Traditional MT is the same as the sport kind, trained the same way with the same intensity. their big thing is their conditioning methods and their power kicks. they do not focus on wrestling at all unless it's an add on to their particular camp.

I was under the impression that some clubs already did that, but I could be wrong...

Some clubs are indeed starting to do it. You'd be hard pressed to find some of the old purists doing it though. Some of the old guys are just sticks in teh mud, like a lot of people who simply refuse to continue to learn about their arts because they put themselves in a position above being a student always.

But there is an old saying and it is as true today as it ever was and especially so in context to martial arts. It is:

"The teacher who is not also a student, is neither"

Once an art starts to integrate into your life, you will know it will be a lifetime of learning even if you do teach it. You are still a student, always. In my opinion, this is the correct perspective that will produce the BEST practitioners of any art whether it is lacking a set of range skills or not.